Some of you guys might remember about a year or so ago that I started with a simple few edits to the original Ballistic Weapons, including more realistic ironsighting, higher damage values, lowered recoil, and various other things. Well, I'm going back and actually finishing up with an R2 of the mod!

What's Changed from the Original BW2.1:

Realistic Ironsighting - No longer deal with only seeing the front sight line up with your crosshair! Now you can see down your gun as you would do in real life!

No Crosshairs in Ironsights - Since they only serve to get in the way of your firing now with the ironsights up, crosshairs have been removed while you have the gun ironsighting. Don't fret, you'll still have crosshairs while you are unsighted!

Standardized Damage - Weapons deal damage that is balanced to each other. No more higher damage with weaker bullets! Also, damage is calculated with a specific formula for each region hit, and not just random values.

Decreased Recoil - Recoil no longer will be a hindrance after only 2 shots, but still factors in a lot. Also, recoil patterns have been changed with each gun to have slightly more controllable recoil for those with good skills.

Changed Chaos - Many weapons will behave vastly different from their original counterparts. Run with a machinegun or sniper rifle, and you'll find the gun to actually be 'heavy' to run with. Lighter weapons won't be affected by this, so sometimes lighter IS better!

Changed Sprint Offsets - Every gun will offset, so you can't run and gun like a maniac. Pistols aim down, 2-handed weapons aim down and left, and generally disallow sprinting shots from being accurate at all.

Changed Weapon Functions - Some of your old favorites gain new abilities. These include flashlights for certain weapons, or lasers for others. Soon to come will be even more changed abilities and firemodes.

Changed Firerates - Most weapons will feature more realistic firerates that are more like their real-world counterparts. Watch your ammo consumption closely... speaking of which...

Decreased Ammo Capacities - You'll have to conserve your ammo consumption, so be careful of firing too many shots at an opponent. You might find yourself being forced to use other weapons that you aren't as familiar with, but hey, isn't that a good thing of its own? Generally you will have 2 reserve clips for each caliber of bullet.

Ammo Pools - Many weapons share the same bullets, so you'll need to watch out for wasting ammo with a weapon that you know would work better if used with something you're good with. Don't fear running out of ammo though, there are many caliber bullets you have at your disposal...

Multiple Calibers - Almost every weapon has more than one caliber bullet that can used with each gun. Choose wisely what you want, as clip and reserve capacities are lower for more powerful bullets. Sometimes quantity is more useful than power...

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Intended Changes Later On

Reduced Running Speeds - You just can't run at 8MPH forever with a 10KG LMG in your hands, but you probably could have better chances with a knife out, or even a pistol!

Reduced Stamina - Currently the sprinting lasts too long, and is too helpful at running around too fast considering the weight of your weaponry... speaking of which...

Weight System - The more you carry, the slower you are. You might wanna actually drop a gun or two.

Firing Stamina - Firing a weapon reduces your stamina, and thus also binds your recoil and chaos control to the current level of stamina you have. So running has an aftereffect as well...

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Weapons Intended to be Added for R2:

All the BW2.1 guns, besides alien tech

All the BWBP weapons, besides staffs and ViPeR

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EDIT: Status Update!

So far I have completed the following weapons with all their calibers:

M806A2 - .42HV, .45HV, .50AP
AM67 - .357SM, .50AP
RS8 - 9mm, .38S, 10mm, .45HV
GRS9 - 9mm, .38S, .42HV
D49 - .357SM, .50AP
Wilson 4X DB - .41M, .44M
Fifty-9 - 9mm, .38S, .45HV
M50 - 5.56mmN, 7.62mmS, 7.62mmN, .458S

More to be completed by today's end!

Just to note: There are 76 weapons, including variants, but excluding grenades.

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Status Update [3/16/09]

Currently I have finished 37 weapons, and have 29 working in-game. They are all functional, but not ready for finality. I might decide on releasing a "small taste" pack of 3 finished weapons, a pistol, SMG, and an AR, with all their variants I have. At the moment, I haven't decided on making multiple variants of shotguns, but if I do, there will easily be a final total of 80+ weapons if I do.

For this Small Taste Pack, I am contemplating what weapons to include... Right now, it's already decided to have the S-AR12 for the AR slot (which makes for 4 weapons, 5.56x45mm, 7.62x51mm NATO, .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf), but you guys can choose which pistol and which SMG to have. To make an easy list...

Pistols:
-------
RS8 - 9mm, .38, 10mm, .45
GRS9 - 9mm, .38, .42
Wilson 4X DB - .41, .44
D49 - .357, .50
M806A2 - .42, .45, .50
D49 - .357, .50

SMGs:
------
XK2 - 9mm, .38, .50
Fifty-9 - 9mm, .38, .45
XRS10 - .42, .45, .50


Oh, and I'll get some screenshots in-game soon.

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Status Update [3/17/09]

I have just completed the rest of the ARs, so I have finally finished creating all the variants for the pistols, SMGs, shotguns, and ARs. Right now, that stands at 41/76. I am currently looking into a new idea for the mod: multiple sounds for each weapon, dependent on the gun's caliber. Don't expect that to make it to the final version, it's just something I am thinking of experimenting with.

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Status Update [3/19/09]

With ARs out of the way, I have been working on the MG class. Right now, I have finished the M353 and the M925, with every weapon so far, besides the M925 variants, working in-game. At the moment, that means about 45 weapons are in-game, with 48 almost finished in coding total. Always check back on this post, there's more to come!

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Status Update [3/21/09]

I've got two pieces of news today! As of last night, I have 56 weapons working in game now! However, I am still working on all their recoil and chaos values. Chaos values are (for the most part) going to remain very constant with how they were setup in BWv21realistic (beta 12 or something...), but I might do some changes to the weapons based on how I see fit for making them work better with each weapon's weight. Recoil values will DEFINITELY change depending on the caliber of the weapon you are using.

The other piece of news is that I will be setting up a public beta of about 20 of the weapons as soon as I get recoil values inserted to a few sets of the weapons. In this beta, I will put in the mainly one weapon of each class, plus their calibers (except the explosives class, I don't have any G5s or HAMRs done yet). At minimum that would be 15 weapons, but I think I'm going to choose the following weapons for the beta (making for 16 weapons):

M806A2 -|- .42HV, .45HV, .50AP

XK2 -|- 9mm, .38 Special, .50AP

MRS138 -|- 10 Gauge

SRS900 -|- 7.62mm Soviet, .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf, .585 Nyati

XMV-850 -|- 5.8mm DBP-87, 7mm Sako

R9 -|- 6mm Remington, 7mm STW, 8mm S

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Status Update [3/22/09]

As promised, I have a Public Beta 1 ready to go! When you download the file, please read through the included readme file.

Update: A new forum has been opened on the BWCommunity site for R2! Check it out and post input!

http://www.bwcommunity.com/viewforum.php?f=41

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Status Update [3/23/09]

I ended up screwing up with the damn zip file, and forgetting about some scope textures I kept with the SRS900 (and other scoping weapons), so I've got different download links now.

Edit: Download Links are gonna be at the bottom of the post from now on.

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Status Update [3/25/09]

Updated the beta links to version 3.

Changelog:

Changed damage values on all weapons
Removed Sniper's Burst on SRS900s
Added Burst and Full Auto to 7.62mm, .458, .50B SRS900s
Reworked recoil for all weapons
Reworked chaos for all weapons
Increased RecoilDeclineTime for most weapons
RecoilDeclineTime varies with each weapon caliber now
Thoughts on removing .585 SRS900 kept in mind

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Status Update [3/27/09]

Public Beta 1 Version 4 uploaded.

Changelog:
removed .38 XK2
removed .42HV M806A2
renamed .45HV to .45ACP
renamed .50AP to .50 AE
increased max reserves by 100%, except on XMV-850s

Known Issues:

R9 is too easy to fire at a whim, needs a slower ChaosDeclineTime.
SRS900s need to be automatically set initially to Full-Auto rather than Semi-Auto
SRS900 .585 Nyati still exists. It's a testbed for the R78's highest caliber for the time being though. However, it is purposely only Semi-Auto.

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Status Update [3/28/09]

Version 5 of the download links uploaded.

Changelog:
reduced ChaosSpeedThreshold on R9, XMV850

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Download Link:

[url=None]Texture Package (Scopes) - Unavailable, use the Texture Package included with PB1V5[/url]

Public Beta 1 - Version 5

Public Beta 2 - Version 2

Awesome stuff.

Do you have any screenies or are those over at BW Community?

I have no screenshots right now since I am currently porting the code files from the original BWv21realistic files to the R2 package. It should have something in a few days that would be visible for you to see. However, since I got a lot of calibers I'm adding in that weren't there with the previous version, it might take some time with that part of the code. All the guns would look the same, but I could show the flashlight and such on the S-AR12 and M806A2 at the very least.

I hope we have the ability to choose some tweaks, it can fit with what a player want to use and eventually the fact that BW got some custom options

Awesome, I really look forward to using these. Onslaught just got a little better

You said something about realistic ironsighting. Doesnt that cause animation and clipping problems?

BTW disappearing crosshairs during ironsighting is a good idea

Unfortunately with a few weapons, yes, but there was nothing I could do about that to fix such issues. I'm trying to work around them though...

Man, I'm already doing a lot of these with my guns.

The clipping problem can be fixed for many weapons by disabling the fire animation for them when iron sights are engaged. This helps your aim tremendously when firing the automatic weapons.

This does have some drawbacks, in that those moving cartridge-ejector flaps wouldn't move when firing, though you wouldn't really notice that unless you were looking for it. Also, guns that need to be cocked between shots won't automatically cock when using the iron sights, as the fire animation has a notify at the end for auto-cocking.


I don't see how ammo pools could be considered realistic, since all the bullets come in different magazines that aren't interchangeable. The only guns I could see realistically pooling are those that don't have magazines, like the shotguns.

The multi-caliber weapon idea seems like it's going to add a lot of unnecessary complexity without really adding much to the gameplay. You could pretty much just choose a different weapon if you want more power or a larger mag. Plus, don't you need to switch out a bunch of the weapons' parts to fire significantly different rounds for it?

EDIT: R2?

?

Beh, we both ended up doing about the same ideas, but you wanted to place more of what you considered balanced, while I was going for balance by sheer power and ease of death with every gun (while not making every gun 1 hit kills, only a few higher powered sniper rounds can do that).



I might do that with the M50 and a few others, but not too many of the guns... Mainly the M50 would like that due to the damn thing being hard enough to look through the ring rear sight as is...



Just because a magazine is different doesn't make the bullet any different. The bullets are interchangeable. While it'd be a frustration to actually change bullets between the clips, it's still possible.



Actually I'm trying to make calibers more important since they will all have different firing patterns for each gun they are used in. Yeah, you'd have to change out weapon parts to change calibers, but that's why there are different weapons for each gun. Actually as it stands, only the pistols have an overabundance of numbers. It breaks down like this with all the calibers I have implemented:

Pistol Count: 16
SMG Count: 9
Shotgun Count: 4
AR Count: 12
MG Count: 9
Sniper Count: 14
Rocket Count: 12

Due to the pistol count, I'll be including instructions in a read-me to actually say to only place 12 pistols in at a time so you don't even have a chance of overloading the weapon system. Alongside that, it helps that I'm disabling dual-wielding. With the lower ammo capacities you have, it'd be useless to dual-wield anyways.



No, it's just a short way of saying Release 2. I have never even seen that anime. No relevance at all.

Who is going to sit there and unload and reload each magazine to switch out his bullets for different guns in a deathmatch situation? You just work with what you have.

To be more realistic, it would also probably make more sense to discard unused ammo in a magazine instead of returning it to the ammo pool when reloading, for the reason listed above.




Ah, separate weapons, like with your slug shotguns.

This still seems like too much work for little effect. Aside from your slug shotguns, I don't see how each variant could be significantly different from the others. If every gun is going to be able to kill people very quickly, would the firing patterns really make that much of a difference? How would a player identify which variant of gun his enemy is holding?




Really? Recoil per shot really didn't seem all that high to me in BW. It was only really a hindrance if you were going full-auto and were firing from the hip. I actually increased recoil per shot by quite a bit in my guns. With the higher damage, this seems like it would make it very difficult to stay alive.

True, but it's still possible to be done. I am taking a few liberties of pure realism. That would be more annoying than fun. It's not like you can change guns like you do in BW like real life. But since that's something that would affect gameplay too much to do super long weapon switches...



Again, I am taking a liberty here with not just tossing out the clip and the remainder of ammo.



Each type of caliber does affect the clip capacity of the weapon. While the guns kill pretty fast, it works where it'll still take 5 to 6 torso shots to kill with a 5.56x45 NATO round, while a .458 SOCOM takes about 3 or 4 shots, and the .50 Beowulf round takes 2. Most of the calibers are centered around the number of shots required to kill an opponent with only torso shots.



Exactly. The whole point of this mod is to make it harder to survive for long periods of time, and force the player to take better tactics than the run and gun of normal BW. If you know you'll die very fast, you'll either play the mod like normal UT where you try to kill as many as possible before falling, or try to survive and take your kills slower, but live longer and get better weapons as you progress.

I do plan to also later on make BW Conflict have a standard of unlocking weapons by caliber until you are using the highest caliber guns in the end. So you'll start with 9x19mm Parabellum firing pistols and SMGs, but end with .950 JDJ firing M75s. Oh, and everything between too. That always helps.

Sacrificing some realism for the sake of gameplay is always good. It's a game after all. I'm just curious why you would choose to add changes that make the game less realistic than it currently is while putting realism as your top goal. It doesn't really matter, it's your thing.




I still really don't see a point in this. If you want to fire more bullets, use an SRS900 or an R9. They might not have the grenade launcher or silly camera, but these weapons have tradeoffs for a reason. Plus, you'd have to make up new sounds for them...

Also, those 5.56x45mm damage figures are quite a bit lower than the current M50. It does about 20-30 damage torso, so 4 shots to kill on average.




Unless you're playing against novice bots, you're already forced to use more than just run-and-gun techniques in BW (unless you're just dualing Fifty-9s or spamming FP9s or Pineapples) due to the movement chaos and recoil. I don't see how this changes much except making mistakes a lot more costly, and increasing the luck factor.

Mainly the BWv21realistic thing is more nomenclature than a total goal. My main point is actually trying to make it difficult to survive for ridiculously long times.



The tradeoffs for using each weapon are best seen with BW Conflict, which is where it's easier to tell where having better stats result in the better weapons. Guns that use the same caliber have different recoils due to how I perceived them in weapon weight.

As for the 5.56mm rounds doing less than the standard M50... it's because the 5.56 is the weakest caliber for the ARs. Here's how I set the AR calibers (showing only max damage values):

5.56mm-
Headshot = 28
Torso = 17
Limb = 7

7.62mm Soviet-
Headshot = 33
Torso = 20
Limb = 8

7.62mm NATO-
Headshot = 43
Torso = 26
Limb = 10

.458 SOCOM-
Headshot = 55
Torso = 33
Limb = 13

.50 Beowulf-
Headshot = 88
Torso = 53
Limb = 21

Each damage value is setup in a very specific formula, but also a very simple one: the base is the max torso damage.

Max Torso = base figure
Min Torso = Max Torso - 3
Max Headshot = Max Torso / 0.6
Min Headshot = Max Headshot - 3
Max Limb = Max Torso * 0.4
Min Limb = Max Limb - 3 (sometimes 2, but only if the values are extremely small as is...)



I often play against Adept bots with stock UT, but BW with Godlike is usually how I play. They aren't very good at killing with any inkling of range, but that's due to how I play on larger maps that require longer ranges, which bots are bad at with BW guns. Often it's the explosives that kill me. Mistakes are supposed to be costly, but they are a bit too lenient in standard BW, but luck is something I wanted to remove with the reduction of recoil, since then it's more skill based when recoil is controllable by the player.

Caliber isn't the only thing that determines damage. The 5.56mm NATO may be smaller than the rest, but they have a tendency to yaw fragment inside the target, as long as the bullet isn't moving too slowly when it hits, which becomes a problem beyond 100 meters or with shorter-barreled guns.

I think you really have to re-evaluate your damage values. These guns are going to be weaker than the originals, when comparing them by the rounds the fire.


How does the ammo pool thing further that goal, though? I guess it would make it harder if you want to use a lot of 5.56mm ammo or whatever, but as a smart player could simply avoid ammo constraints by not choosing 2 guns of the same caliber.

The damage of a projectile in general depends on its cal. and its speed. If a 5.56mm round flys fast enough it would instantly kill a person due to the body fluid shock effect. However it is forbiden to exeed the speed limit.

There's a lot more to it than hydrostatic shock. You want to destroy as much vital tissue as you can. Fragmentation, yawing, or expanding on impact can help with that.

I don't believe there is any international law that limits the speed of a bullet.

Per bullet, they might do less damage, but they are going to be much more controllable by recoil than the standard BW guns, which is where my weapons will get their best power from. However, those are just the standard AR bullets. Since the ARs fire extremely fast (almost 2x as fast as the standard BW versions), they make up for that fact quite a lot, along with the reconfigured recoil.

As for the smart player tactic, that's just obvious. I want that, it forces a player to try figuring what guns are best for their style of play, since some weapons are better off using smaller calibers, while others are better with larger calibers. Sometimes it can be best to reverse it and use the higher caliber for the lighter weapon simply because you can move faster with it. It's supposed to be a lot of factors in why you'd change weapons based on calibers, even though 2 other guns might use that caliber as well.

Personally the whole multiple-caliber system seems a bit too complex.

I mean, you can do whatever you want, but the weapons in BW are already pretty much split up by calibers.

For pistols alone we already have: (width wise)

9mm (.34) - GRS9
10mm (.39) - RS8
10.4mm (.41) - Wilson
11.2mm (.44) - D49
11.5mm (.45) - M806
12.7mm (.50) - AM67
15.2mm (.60) - AH104

Setting aside the differences in weight, barrel length, and clip size, you'll see that this system has already been set up.

The actual lengths of the bullets vary, but your system doesn't seem to be factoring that in.

Think you forgot that the AH104 is your weapon pack's AM67 in a super form... but anyways, they may be split by calibers, but the damages done by each weren't very consistent to each other. The AM67 did 40-70 for torso damage, while the M925 did 45-60. Where's the consistency in that? Both may be .50 cal bullets, but the M925 was firing the BMG length rounds (or so it says). The AM67 fired HV 50 cal rounds, which basically means it was on a shorter length than the BMG bullet, yet it deals much higher damage at the upper end of the damage spectrum.

In my system, the .50AP (pistol caliber) does 39-42, the .50 Beowulf (AR caliber) does 50-53, and the 12.7x99mm BMG (sniper caliber) does 97-100. These are all torso damages BTW. I am definitely taking into account for the bullet's lengths, as the pistol's 50 cal (33mm long) is only slightly shorter than the AR's Beowulf (42mm long), while the BMG is abviously 99mm. To note, the .50AP is the only one of the 3 that takes liberties in naming, as it's not a pistol caliber made in AP style, but rather in AE.

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Anyways, I have all the pistols added in, but still require the rest of the 76 weapon roster to be completed before I do any betas (or even UCC compiling!).

If some weapons will be better off using a specific round, why would you ever bother using the other ones? Why bother making a weapon that is inherently inferior to another one, in the context of a game?

It might be best not to do all the weapons at once. Test the ones you have first to see if it works the way you want it, so you don't have to do 76 weapons' worth of fixes if you find something wrong.

You'll run out of that ammo pretty damn fast. Better rounds have lower capacities, while the lesser rounds have more of them. It's a choice between quantity or power sometimes.



I'm trying to actually do some code to make it where I only need to change one damage value to get the other damage values stored in, so it'd be easier to change. But yeah, I was thinking of doing that pretty soon. Still gotta get the base files up and working though...

I think we should take in consideration the fact some bullets have a perforating power and some others not

Pistol bullets makes more damages to Unarmored targets, but they got a power reduction against armored targets.
The Rifle bullets make less damage than pistol bullets, but they can penetrate armor and even got a bonus against vehicles because they can cause severe damages to armor.
The pressure made by the case's explosion is a parameter to take as well as the projectile speed an weight.
The projectile length and even the projectile largeness are parameters too
Larger the projectile is better is stopping power is and a good stopping power makes more damages to fleshies / organic targets than a perforating bullet.

In games IMO a gun's caliber is more a mean to give a certain power to a gun than fits with the reality, because most effects aren't take in consideration

As is stands right now with damages, the 9mm is the weakest bullet, but the .38 Special is only slightly weaker than the 5.56, while the .42HV and up are better than the 7.62x51mm NATO rounds. I'll be trying to deal with vehicle damages later on, but I already am thinking that only AP and large caliber bullets would do much to vehicles, and not just like 1 damage (like the bullet ricochets instead of penetrating, but since I can't code worth a flip to actually make ricochets.... it'll just do 1 dmg unless being a better bullet meant for it).

Oh, to note: I've got 29 weapons working in-game now, but I still have to work on their recoil and chaos values to be what I want for R2. I took out 3 zombies from BMRv2 with 8 shots of the RS8 .45HV! When I start working on the final weapons, you guys might like the surprise I have for the HAMR...

this is gonna be pretty cool. as for the HAMR, is it a nuke?

Close, but not quite that powerful. Actually, it is as powerful as one, but lower class nukes.

Unrelated: I've been looking up and around for zombie mods. I remember you somehow managed to put the KF zombies into regular UT2004- you recorded that hilarious video on youtube called "the Fleshpound that wouldnt die". I looked up that Blue Moon Rising Mod that you mentioned just now. How did you input BW weapons into Blue Moon Rising? Is is possible to somehow get the zombies in that mod into the Invasion gametype? Fighting Skaarj waves is getting a little repetitive

Related to Mod: I'm looking forward to this HAMR that you have modified. What about the G5? Keep up the good work dude. I'm looking forward to using these !

Inputting BMR into UT2k4 is actually a finicky thing. If you do it wrong, you'll end up replacing files that aren't supposed to be replaced. What I do is simply place the whole mod into the normal UT folders, but make sure to not allow it to replace any files at ALL. Same with KF. I actually screwed my UT install by replacing one texture file. However, that was fixed after a fresh reinstall.

The G5 is there, and has its own set of rocket calibers, and RPGs too. Of course, it's not the one with a super weapon caliber... but I might come up with something soon for it!

Over time, I've been updating the first post periodically, if you haven't already been able to tell. However, I'm making this post mainly to point out that there is now a link to Public Beta 1 of R2. Please try it out and give me input on what I should change!

Thank you I try this

A new forum has been opened up for the public betas of BWv21realisticR2! Go here and check it out, as well as post your input to the mod! Thanks again to Xav for doing this!

http://www.bwcommunity.com/viewforum.php?f=41

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I will continue to update this thread, but the main testing info will be posted up on BWC. Major info here, beta info over there.