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[MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
http://www.runestorm.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22041		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  OCAdam [ Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
Well, right now it's in beta, and it really not finished at all: no weapons, no pathing, 4 playerstarts (of 32), all zoning done, aesthetics not started yet (just a base texture). Oh, and no screen shots yet. I'm going to be updating this thing a lot soon.

It took me an hour to get this far, but should take me days to finish with the way I want it to look. I've designed it with fast action and the Ballistic Weapons Set in mind. Unfortunately, you'd never be able to tell since the zoning names relate to the original UT weapons, and not the BW weapons (since they are swappable).

I've also got a map of the level to exactly what I want it to be like in the end. Heck, I've not even finished the main floor plan yet (just a little more to do then that'll be done). In any case... here it is. Seriously, it's more just there so you guys can see if you liked the way it was in size so far.

Edit: File updated into next post.
Author:  OCAdam [ Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
Update: I've finished bot pathing and weapons placement! Now just to finish the aesthetics... I've gotten the ammo in now, but I'm not loading that version up yet, since it won't let me just reload the file in this post...

Edit: Newest version with Ammo in next post.
Author:  Mr.UglyPants [ Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
works okay, good job though.
Author:  OCAdam [ Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
Thanks, my version's just with the ammo (that I didn't upload since I couldn't at the moment). Still have health. Actually... I'm debating to have health packs or not. Makes you think twice about running in and just hoping the other team isn't packing a shotgun... Then again, it may make it too hard to get a good killing spree against bots.

I might make a Health Pack version and a no health version. Who knows? I'm still debating also if this is going to be a cave, or a Perfect Dark type future industrial setting. What do you think guys?

Heck, here's the new version. Just have to delete the old one...

Edit:I'm making 5 different versions: Health Only, Damage Amp Only, Both, None, and a 00 Agent version (Caverns Edition, no health or amp)

Double Edit: New version in next post. It's Goldeneye Complex styled!
Author:  ShadowBlade [ Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:34 am ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
cool.. :)
Author:  OCAdam [ Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
Thanks SB (I keep thinking of Strong bad when I type that!). Is there anything I really need to do for the level's design? Does it feel like it may be a little small or big for the 4 on 4 TDM?

Oh, and here's the complete map. This is one of the 5 versions. Not yet has it been named to according the way I'm naming the map pack. Supposed to be called Juggler-Expert, but I didn't get to do that yet.

Edit: Next version in a few posts...
Author:  ShadowBlade [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:28 am ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
got it now.. i'll try take a look ;)
Author:  Redshift [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
OCAdam wrote:
I've designed it with fast action and the Ballistic Weapons Set in mind.
...
Does it feel like it may be a little small or big for the 4 on 4 TDM?


Well the action's definitely fast! :D It works fine in 3vs3vs3, so 4vs4 should be cool too. However, I do think it needs a bit more z-axis, like a second (or third!) level in some of the rooms, for example hallways with pillars and such. Literally adds a whole new dimension to gameplay.

Speaking of pillars, one of the unique features of BW is that (some) projectiles actually penetrate through geometry. A map that's made with BW in mind should definitely exploit this feature with (low) walls, pillars, doors, windows, walkways etc. of variable thickness, so some will offer (a certain level of) protection against certain projectile types, while others won't. Great for tactics and realism!

But maybe the whole idea is to keep things fast, clean & simple, in which case nevermind. ;)
Author:  OCAdam [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
Okay, I'll keep that in mind when I make a few new parts to the level. I'm still attempting to make it fast paced. Those bots sure love the rocket room!

Yeah, I've been playing for an hour of DM-Blackhawk. The M925 is a great weapon for long range combat I tell ya! I use it as my sniper weapons, and the M353 is my machinegun. The M925 is just a high caliber pistol to me! And a long range one also...

(going off to try building more to the level)

PS: Can the bullets that do penetrate do a double wall penetration, or does it calculate the total wall distance traveled from... wait, lemme explain a little better than that...

Is it where the bullets can go through infinite walls, as long as those walls aren't more than x units wide? Or is it where the bullets will go through x units of toal wall width, including from multiple walls? And what is that x units wide limit for bullets? Maybe I should ask SB or DC for that answer...
Author:  OCAdam [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
I've got a new addition to arena! Now it has an upper deck section that allows for sniping on the rocket room. It has a little alcove just like the Goldeneye Complex, but with BW, you can shoot through this thing! Uh-oh!

[br]File: [url=../../files/public/1166388842_246_FT22041_dm-4vs4-juggler.zip]1166388842_246_FT22041_dm-4vs4-juggler.zip[/url]
Author:  Redshift [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
Yeah, better ask the devs about the bullet penetration thing, they have all the exact info. Maybe the type of material used (i.e. 'wood', 'steel', 'concrete' etc.) also has an effect, would be pretty cool.

Btw, for a good example of tight z-axis gameplay (and general layout, atmosphere etc.) check out http://utforums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=557597 With 8 bots this map's intense as hell. 8)
Author:  OCAdam [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
Whoa, that is a lot of z-axis! I kinda think it may be a little too much z-axis!

Yeah, I'm still editing the level to fit the classic 007:GE Complex theme, which as I remember, it had pretty little z-axis fighting involved. But since this is UT, I'm still making it have a bit more in z-axis than was in the Complex styled levels. Pillars are to come soon! Heck, I might make a completely deformable pillar in there for a beta test! How would the deformable pillar sound to you?

Also, just for performance issues, my computer is slow on most maps. Torlan gives me about 40-50 FPS, but this level allows for 100 FPS. When it runs slow on my computer is when I should stop adding in stuff that may take lots of computer power.
Author:  OCAdam [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
Sorry for a double post, but I'm going to have this new version of Juggler with the new area and the (crappy) pillars added in. It's all zoned and pathed, so don't worry![br]File: [url=../../files/public/1166412155_246_FT22041_dm-4vs4-juggler-expert.zip]1166412155_246_FT22041_dm-4vs4-juggler-expert.zip[/url]
Author:  Captain Xavious [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:08 am ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
For some reason I can't open up either of the zips of the last two versions... :(
Author:  OCAdam [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
^ I've been talking to you about that. (Just letting all others know I'm not just ignoring you X)

Here's a full map pack of all 4 editions of the level. For the Guitar Hero player, that is how I named each one of them. You'll find what's different about Easy, Medium, Hard, and Expert soon enough... Here's a hint: all previous releases were the Expert mode.
Author:  Redshift [ Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
OCAdam wrote:
Whoa, that is a lot of z-axis! I kinda think it may be a little too much z-axis!


Well, to each his own... :D

OCAdam wrote:
Yeah, I'm still editing the level to fit the classic 007:GE Complex theme, which as I remember, it had pretty little z-axis fighting involved. But since this is UT, I'm still making it have a bit more in z-axis than was in the Complex styled levels. Pillars are to come soon! Heck, I might make a completely deformable pillar in there for a beta test! How would the deformable pillar sound to you?


The pillars are a nice touch and make the gameplay tighter than a duck's arse. Deformability is an interesting concept, but it looks like it still needs some tweaking; right now you can shoot right through the pillars with any weapon (even weak-ass pistols) before they deform. However, to make them useful as cover only the .50 sniper and heavy .50 MG should be able to penetrate, albeit with significant damage reduction. Also the deforming sequence itself may need some more lovin, doesn't really look natural at the mo. But overall definitely an improvement. Love the winding corridors, btw, great for intense around-the-corner fights. If only the bots were a bit smarter...

OCAdam wrote:
Also, just for performance issues, my computer is slow on most maps. Torlan gives me about 40-50 FPS, but this level allows for 100 FPS. When it runs slow on my computer is when I should stop adding in stuff that may take lots of computer power.


Good plan. :)
Author:  OCAdam [ Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:52 am ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
Okay. The pillars were just there as a last second thought. I tried out using the way Enter the Matrix did pillar deformation back a few years back. All they did was remove panels and slightly remove chips of the actual pillar. I think I may have made it too thin after they were destroyed. In UEd, they got to be about 4 UU think at the center. I'm still waiting for DC's reply to my question for each weapon's penetration range.

I set each panel's health to 100 also. Should that be higher or lower? And bots can be made a little smarter if I know how they are stupid. If it's how they are pathed, I can give them either A. more path choosing freedom (more pathnodes), or B. redo certain paths to make the bots strafe in corridors, or C. replace corner pathnodes to be more realistic considering to where they are in the level (slow parts use shorter routes, action parts try to use cover (would take longest)).

Hey, how'd you like the differences in the levels depending on difficulty? If you didn't notice, the part that was changed was on both Easy and Hard modes, the static mesh fence at the top of the DD Amp was deleted to allow for you to jump down on the action with the DD Amp on with no Translocator use (this map was deisgned with translocator use forbidden).



Edit: I had an idea! To further emphasis the EaMHEx part of the map pack, I'll go make the pathing on Easy real stupid simple, Medium to have the bots the way they are now, Hard for them using certain jump points, and Expert with the full on realistic pathing.
Author:  OCAdam [ Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
Edit: Crap, hit a button before uploading. Delete this post please!
Author:  OCAdam [ Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
I'm uploading this full map pack just for my bro to download. Also, it has most of the stuff done, only Expert Mode is not finished. I like EaMHEx!

Edit: Well, map's too big to release in a map pack... I'm going to try sending them separately later. As for now, I'm just having to e-mail my bro this pack.
Author:  Captain Xavious [ Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
Just played this map last night, and its great fun. Noticed a few bugs, but I already addressed them in my email.

Also, did I just not see them or are there no grenades in this level?
Author:  OCAdam [ Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
No, grenades are in the level, but it depends on how you had their swapping. My grenades were on the Bio Rifle only, so I designed it that way. Maybe this will help.

Shield Gun: All 3 melee (Katana, Knife, Skrith Blades)
Assault Rifle: XK2, M806, RS8, XRS10, MRT6
Bio Rifle: NRP57, FP7, FP9A1, BX-5
Shock Rifle: M50, SRS900 (doesn't appear due to bug for SRS)
Link Gun: Skrith weapons (not melee though)
Minigun: M353, M925
Flak Cannon: M763, M290, MRS138
Rocket Launcher: G5 RPG
Lightning Gun: R78A1
Sniper Rifle: R78A1
Redeemer: EVERYTHING!
Ion Painter: M75 TIC
Grenade Launcher: NRP57
Mine Layer: BX-5
AVRiL: G5 RPG
Target Painter: M75 TIC, FP9A1
Author:  Captain Xavious [ Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
Yep, that's pretty much how mime is, only I don't have problems with the SRS.
Author:  OCAdam [ Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
Well the bug is where I can't get it since abot will get it first and then it will never cycle with the weapons, or is replaced by the XK2. I'm going off to play with my BW settings now.
Author:  Redshift [ Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
OCAdam wrote:
Okay. The pillars were just there as a last second thought. I tried out using the way Enter the Matrix did pillar deformation back a few years back. All they did was remove panels and slightly remove chips of the actual pillar. I think I may have made it too thin after they were destroyed. In UEd, they got to be about 4 UU think at the center. I'm still waiting for DC's reply to my question for each weapon's penetration range.


Well, to me it looked like (all) bullets passed right through the pillars before they deformed, almost as if they has no collision. But maybe that's been fixed now...

OCAdam wrote:
I set each panel's health to 100 also. Should that be higher or lower?


100's ok I guess.

OCAdam wrote:
And bots can be made a little smarter if I know how they are stupid. If it's how they are pathed, I can give them either A. more path choosing freedom (more pathnodes), or B. redo certain paths to make the bots strafe in corridors, or C. replace corner pathnodes to be more realistic considering to where they are in the level (slow parts use shorter routes, action parts try to use cover (would take longest)).


What I meant is that UT's AI as a whole is pretty limited. Your map seems to be pathed ok except that even on godlike I didn't see the bots use any of the crawlspaces. But maybe that's just too much for 2004-level AI. Otherwise they seem to get around just fine, bots tend to be less obviously stupid in these tight arenas. But if you think you can improve their corridor behavior, by all means! :)

Btw, Junk War, besides being a fun addition to regular BW DM, can be used to spot pathing errors in maps. Just start up a botmatch, and if after a couple minutes junk starts piling up in certain places, there's almost certainly something wrong with the pathing. The Aged to Perfection health vial mut can be used in a similar fashion.

OCAdam wrote:
Hey, how'd you like the differences in the levels depending on difficulty? If you didn't notice,


Just tested it a couple times on godlike, so no I didn't notice that. Nice touch, tho!
Author:  Captain Xavious [ Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
I never play UT2004 with bots, so none of those problems ever really popped up before...
Author:  Redshift [ Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
You should try it, it's, uh, fun! %-6 Well, at least you have full control over how & when it's played...

Edit: and your humiliating defeats and silly screwups remain hidden from the world. Though the bots may taunt and scold you, they don't really mean it. They are very forgiving, take no offense, and harbor no grudges. Bots just don't give a f--k either way. :)

Which just gave me an idea! How about 'antitaunts'? So basically bots would say stuff like 'wow, ns!' when you blow someone's head off instead of just calling you a bitch when they frag you.
Author:  Captain Xavious [ Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
I just play LAN matches against my bro or play invasion with a varying selection of monsters.
Author:  OCAdam [ Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
Redshift wrote:
OCAdam wrote:
Okay. The pillars were just there as a last second thought. I tried out using the way Enter the Matrix did pillar deformation back a few years back. All they did was remove panels and slightly remove chips of the actual pillar. I think I may have made it too thin after they were destroyed. In UEd, they got to be about 4 UU think at the center. I'm still waiting for DC's reply to my question for each weapon's penetration range.


Well, to me it looked like (all) bullets passed right through the pillars before they deformed, almost as if they has no collision. But maybe that's been fixed now...

OCAdam wrote:
I set each panel's health to 100 also. Should that be higher or lower?


100's ok I guess.

OCAdam wrote:
And bots can be made a little smarter if I know how they are stupid. If it's how they are pathed, I can give them either A. more path choosing freedom (more pathnodes), or B. redo certain paths to make the bots strafe in corridors, or C. replace corner pathnodes to be more realistic considering to where they are in the level (slow parts use shorter routes, action parts try to use cover (would take longest)).


What I meant is that UT's AI as a whole is pretty limited. Your map seems to be pathed ok except that even on godlike I didn't see the bots use any of the crawlspaces. But maybe that's just too much for 2004-level AI. Otherwise they seem to get around just fine, bots tend to be less obviously stupid in these tight arenas. But if you think you can improve their corridor behavior, by all means! :)

Btw, Junk War, besides being a fun addition to regular BW DM, can be used to spot pathing errors in maps. Just start up a botmatch, and if after a couple minutes junk starts piling up in certain places, there's almost certainly something wrong with the pathing. The Aged to Perfection health vial mut can be used in a similar fashion.

OCAdam wrote:
Hey, how'd you like the differences in the levels depending on difficulty? If you didn't notice,


Just tested it a couple times on godlike, so no I didn't notice that. Nice touch, tho!




Uh, the crawlspaces (the ducts) aren't pathed. I tried pathing them, but the pathnodes wouldn't appear. So... I'm going to make the ducts less buggy as I told to X by making them 72x72x72 instead of 64^3. Then I'll try to path the ducts.

On the pillar parts, maybe it does that. I dunno, I'll go test that out in a bit. If so, then I might just make the pillars not deformable. And I was meaning the level differences by playing each version of the level (EaMHEx). Heh, I hope this all helps!
Author:  Redshift [ Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
Yes, that does help! !lol
Author:  ShadowBlade [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:10 am ]
Post subject:  [MAP] DM-4vs4-Juggler
i must check this map out.. bit busy though :D
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