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What Makes a Good RPG?
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Author:  Black Eagle [ Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:47 am ]
Post subject:  What Makes a Good RPG?
Role-Playing-Games come in many forms, and while some people may argue over what exactly an RPG is, the term is more or less fluid and relative to who's playing it... ;)

But what makes a good RPG?.. Is it story?, is it lore?, is it free-roaming?.. Or is it a more specific feature, turn-based gameplay?, good combat?, flashy items?, or character choices?.. :think:

Stalker is most near an RPG than anything else it is, Mass Effect is also a slight RPG, Skyrim I would call a full blown RPG, as with Diablo. Every game offers something different, but not all features will work together well.. :)

So in your opinion: What is the best combination of things that makes a good RPG?.. :think:

Personally I would say Skyrim might be the best RPG(Although I haven't played it), or perhaps Titan Quest, but I could sight many others that are fit... ;)
Author:  ShadowBlade [ Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Makes a Good RPG?
Theme! Atmosphere! Art!

It's a pity that combat in most cases comes down to mouse clicking and is non-engaging.

Bad:
-Sluggish movement and combat
-Non-interactive combat
-Bland theme
-Endless reliance on side-quests and hand-holding
-Isometric camera and control (because it leads to the inevitable mouse clicking insanity)
*I may update this*
Author:  ChaosMarine [ Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Makes a Good RPG?
The story, for one...
A RPG without a decent story isn't much of a game in the first place...
First person.
I dunno about anyone else, but being able to play a RPG in first person is simply spectacular. It really lets you enjoy the game ten times more.

And I'm pretty much in agreement on the rest with SB.

Skyrim is fun and all, but there two recurring enemies that get annoying after awhile(giant spiders and Draugr, which are undead warriors and are in just about every dungeon). On lower settings, the dragons are a bit weak as well, on the second and third lowest, they just have more health.
Author:  ShadowBlade [ Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Makes a Good RPG?
@ChaosMarine
Yeah, story is quite important too, but I prefer the theme and atmosphere still :D I agree with you that we need more 1st or 3rd person RPG's. I'd go with 3rd in a fantasy setting because of the melee combat, but I'd say 1st person for something with guns or ranged combat. Like The Witcher and Borderlands and STALKER as examples.

Freedom! Need more freedom!
Author:  DarkCarnivour [ Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Makes a Good RPG?
For a start...

Many of these RPGs seem more awesome in theory and until I get into them. They generally turn out to be bland and lacking in 'game' with generic, boring stories.

Some RPGs that I really liked: (that doesn't mean everything in them was good)
The Witcher - Decent characters for once. Actual decisions. Theme and atmosphere
Fallout 3 - A more open world, exploration! Reasonable combat
STALKER - The them, atmosphere, openness, exploration, some scope for tactics. Reasonable combat
Diablo 2 - The art, theme, atmosphere and action
Borderlands - Finally, somebody realized you can actually put good combat alongside RPG mechanics

Not fond of:
-Iso cams with pointy clicky controls!
-The standard quest system.
-There being no actual gameplay or skill involved (click, click, drink potion, click, click, pickup loot)
-Leather caps
-Idiots standing around waiting for me to save the day, find their sheep or bring back 17 carrots
-A world and plot so helplessly, blatantly based on the player's arrival and linear progress
-The grind. Especially emphasized by dull repetitive un-involved combat
-Leather caps
-The word "Missed" floating up into the air
-Having no control over character appearance
-Leather caps, leaf skirts and a sashes having better stats than the "full spiked steel gothic armor of destruction"
-Monsters not dropping what they're obviously carrying
-There being nothing to spend cash on because a random rat dropped better armor than can be bought
-Did I mention the excessively long-persisting, idiotic leather caps and other stupid headgear?

What I like in RPGs:
-Character progression
-Lots of skills, stats, items and things to adjust
-Freedom, openness, exploration
-Variety
-Atmosphere, themes, art
-Non-linearity
-Lots of monsters to hack up
-Trading and economy
(Hmmm, Those sound more like potential than regular definite inclusions)

What I want:
-Give me a world that doesn't want me, where people aren't standing around waiting for a passing savior, where I have to fight for what I want so my gains are really my own.
-Let me make my own quests and objectives. Let me decide what I want and work out how to get it. Give me clues and opportunities, not just stupid hollow quest spam.
-A grey moral landscape. Let me decide if I'm comfortable with what I did, no bloody +1 Goodguy / Evilbastard. I think The Witcher does this quite well. You try to be good, but there's no way to know what is actually a good choice.
-Some use for player skill, not just character skills. FPSs (used to) test our aiming, reflexes, movement, spacial and tactical skills.
-More freedom. Freedom to make my own plans, pick my own enemies, you know, decide my own 'role'. That includes the freedom to make bad choices.
-SATISFYING COMBAT! God damnit, it doesn't have to be grind! Some games are made up of nothing but combat and they can be great fun!
-My ideal RPG would be an open world full of dangers, challenges and opportunities where you make your own adventure and build an empire.
Author:  Black Eagle [ Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What Makes a Good RPG?
DarkCarnivour wrote:
Not fond of:
-Iso cams with pointy clicky controls!
-The standard quest system.
-There being no actual gameplay or skill involved (click, click, drink potion, click, click, pickup loot)
-Idiots standing around waiting for me to save the day, find their sheep or bring back 17 carrots
-The grind. Especially emphasized by dull repetitive un-involved combat


Well, that's just killed my RPG idea right there... :(

I'm just going to go die in a corner somewhere... :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead:

Anyway I do agree with all the points mentioned... :)

Far too many games have lousy combat, or typical features that don't improve upon the old versions of themselves.. :D

Indie games have an excuse, but AAA titles have no excuse for leaving a game in an average state, they CAN do better, they have the means, but yet they so easily just leave things plain and boring when they could make things really awesome if they put in the work... :handgestures-thumbupright:

Skyrim I believe is a good model of a proper RPG, freedom, the world doing its thing without your input, combined with solidity makes it great.. Although I'm sure it has it's flaws like everything.. :)

Oblivion had a glimmer of this, but it lacked in many areas, not least of which was their 'Pudding Faces'... ;)
Author:  Bulska [ Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What Makes a Good RPG?
In my eyes, the big lines of what makes a RPG game a RPG game is Immersion and Exploration.

With Immersion I mean everything that makes you feel you're in a different world, and that's a lot of different features. This includes:
- Smooth movement & combat
- Good NPC interaction
- Realistics reactions to the players choices (and letting the player have choices)
- A living world with great atmosphere
- Don't let the player feel like a god, but don't let the npc's feel like gods either. (difficulty balance)

Exploration is another big part of RPG games. The exploration keeps players going, to find out what's around the next corner and what new area's, items, powers, enemies and allies can be found later in the game. This is usually done by:
- Character progression systems, which unlock new abilities & moves, etc.
- Great variety in places to go, and theme-fitting items, monsters, npc's, events to keep Immersion.
- Randomized stuff. If the same location is never the same in event, items and npc's, the player can keep exploring and never know what to expect.
- Not getting everything on a silver platter. Letting the player work for exploration makes him enjoy new things much more, instead of allowing him to go everywhere, take everything and defeat all things with ease at day 1.


I play a lot of Skyrim recently and it has many good points on Immersion and Exploration but also some things it could've improved upon. (in my own opinion)
+ Awesome atmosphere
+ NPC's are lively (compared to other games)
+ Player can make choices
+ New items and enemies appear when level increases
- Standard quest system, predictable events
- Somewhat annoying movement system, breaks immersion
- NPC stupidity, all games have this though

There's some other big and minor good and bad points to the game but I'm not here to give a full review but an example of my opinion on RPG games. ^_^
Author:  DarkCarnivour [ Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Makes a Good RPG?
Black Eagle wrote:
Well, that's just killed my RPG idea right there... :(
Those are just my opinions and my design ideals. If you actually like those RPG mechanics, it's your project, you should use them.

Here's another thing I think can be tossed in a fiery pit; it's the carry 50 health potions - drink at regular intervals during fights mechanic. Its pointless. May as well have a smaller inventory and health the regenerates during fights.
What I would like to see is something a bit more interesting, perhaps where health is much more rare and valuable like in an old FPS. Of course, the core of the problem is that in these RPGs, there is no way for the player to regulate their health loss. They can't work any harder to avoid damage. When you had low health In Doom, you could use more careful tactics and dodge every fireball. In RPGs, you basically lose a set amount of health in every fight depending on the type of monsters and a bit of dice rolling. All you can do to avoid death is guzzle your unlimited supply of health potions. It's another example of non-gameplay.
Author:  Black Eagle [ Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What Makes a Good RPG?
I suppose a more Borderlands-esque health system would be better, shield then the very rare time you might need an Insta-Health, it certainly is less 'faffy'... :handgestures-thumbupright:

In Iso click-and-do RPGs, you don't really have many options in the way of gameplay, because combat can be rather bland you have to compensate by occupying the player with potion drinking and spell casting, not a nice approach I agree.. :-\

But what RPG is simpler than the Iso variety?, and lets face it, when it comes to Iso, features are gonna be simple and rather clamped in the capabilities department, unless you are a maniac that can make a game like Borderlands, then one can do any number of nice things to make it better.. :think:

Alas, I am not a maniac with ninja skills, rather an odd rotten fruit without an undefined label... :D
Author:  Blade sword [ Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What Makes a Good RPG?
It depends actually if you play games like diablo it's pretty much that. turn by turn RPG needs to think about your abilities and the weapons you have, and much more like the area where you character will strike.
RPGs were games that you had to manage the combat by using the proficiency of your character, not your own skill at bashing and slicing someone with a weapon.
I played the old fallouts which were turn by turn and they needed a lot of strategy and thinking during the fights.
In the matter of action RPG I like the Deus Ex approach even if the result is quite disputable but it's pretty much the good approach to me.
The aim speed and accuracy were affected by the skills and those depended and which weapon category the protagonist was trained, and there is the secondary skills who didn't needed any player skill though only resource management.
Now most games have minigames assigned to this, but I don't think that's the best idea and it tends to be overused and most of the times the minigames are tiresome and just a waste of time IMO.
Author:  Black Eagle [ Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Makes a Good RPG?
Aye, Dues Ex's weapon skills system was ok, except that the weapons felt like they were made of wobbly melted plastic, they would sway a lot and aim all over the place unless you got the skills... :)

I mostly just used the Dragon sword(Once I had it), before that it was a poor choice... :(
Author:  Blade sword [ Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Makes a Good RPG?
That's the thing, they exaggerated on the sway and the reticle shrinking time.
But I think they had the right formula, but they used wrong numbers to calibrate it.
Because all the randomness was simulated through FPS mechanics than random damage, and I think that's why Deus Ex had it right but badly calibrated.
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