RuneStorm :: View topic - Additions to existing weapons.

To maintain realism, perhaps you'd need to have Lighning gun or Skrith rifle ammo for the energy source of this barrel add-on.

I think they are unbalanced just because they are unbalanced. There are combinations which prevail more or less over another ones in certain conditions, mostly depending on the map and its specifics. If you fail to notice that, I'm sorry.

In some circumstances, you can beat anything with anything. In other, not.

As for the Fifty-9, I don't think it's imperfect. It could just use a barrel extension to to be more fun and diverse, that's just all. Neither I think it's mentioned anywhere that Fifty-9 was made for dual wielding.

Nothing that has a stock wasn't designed for dual wielding. Even the Uzis and the Scorpios, though those belong to real life, and there isn't such a thing as dual wielding in real life, unless one is a mad f***r who wants to show off and get himself killed in no time.

And you arguments justifying the current behaviour of Fifty-9 just suck. Because you'll get the same with anything that has a stock of the same length.

I care for balance, you care for dual wielding. That's all. You just like the stock, why not put it straight rather than making up sophisticated justifications? I also like the animation. But as a feature, it's useless no matter how hard you try to convince yourself of the contrary.

I know dual wielding isn't a very realistic thing, but for a video game's sake, lets just assume there is.

I'm not gonna spend 4 hours reading all these posts to say that I think the Fifty-9 is perfect as it is now.

I think I read about an inventory idea. If it is an inventory system like in RPG games, HELL NO.

It doesn't decrease accuracy when you are running, the stock I mean. You are right to say that it increases accuracy while standing, though. But all in all, the stock is just a trinket without much functionality. Its main function consists in its looking cool. Also, you can fold and unfold it. That's great.

As for the diversity, you are not the one to decide on that. BW's diversity is a trademark. There have been talks about accurate powerful rifles without auto fire some months ago, but such a rifle would stay unpopular (IMO).

The barrel extension gets rid of all the inconsistensies descibed above. If you want to place devastating and accurate single shots, you just unfold the damned stock, stick the extention to the gun, and press fire. It gives some reason to fold the stock and unfold it from time to time thus satisfying the player's need to play around with it.

If you want to run and rain fire and lead upon your enemies, you fold the stock, put the extension into your backback, and go on.

If you think Fifty-9 is inaccurate with the stock folded, that can be easily fixed as a balance issue.

So you just tried to invent trouble where there was none.

Evidently you like to double wield F-9's because it's an overpowered combination. I like, too. But I dislike disbalance, that's why we should say bye-bye to Fifty-9 dual wielding.

As for the synergy, on certain maps... on quite a lot of maps, I must say... people are forced to run with a machinegun and a sniper rifle to survive, while shotguns and assault rifles are put aside.

That doesn't look like the synergy you're talking about. I'm talking about an o p t i o n to restrict wielding two weapons of the same class at the same time and an o p t i o n to add an additional main weapon slot to the loadout.

If you don't like it, don't use. Some people who are very fussy about fair play and balance (like myself) would say a huge THANK YOU if the devs add these options, though.

I meant to say that even in videogames, guns don't have redundant details. If a gun has a stock, it's to be held with two hands. If someone invents a gun which is supposed to be dual wielded, it won't have a stock. Simple as that. Pistols and XRS are what are meant to be dual wielded, and XRS is the best candidate to evolve into multifunctional assault carbine.

But I thought you said the shots would lose damage because some of the liniear momentum is put into a spinning action. Also, one single shot from the Fifty-9 is not devastating unless you plant it in the head.

Please confess: did you try to analyze the first post in this thread after reading the whole of it? I suspect no.

The U-1337 accelerator for the Fifty-9 increases both spinning momentum and overal kinetic energy of the bullet, while W-15 for the XRS-10 converts the bullet's overall kinetic energy into spinning momentum. If you want to know why, read my previous posts a bit more carefully.

I don't give a rotten egg about people pretending to be the devs' closest associates while 'not being developers themselves'. I'm 30 and have heard this tale a thousand times since I first discovered Internet. If I find a balance issue, I try to post it so the d e v e l o p e r s might take a look.

Dually wielded Fifty-9 is just a big gaping hole in BW's balance. If the devs want their mod to be popular, they should prefer balance to cool looks. I'm speaking here on behalf of some 70 players of my private BW server. They're concerned with balance just as me.

P.S. *angry* my ideas have nothing to do with changing the menus. Just restrict the dual wielding for Fifty-9, make an option for a convenitent controls mapping, and probably make the guns more diverse. What would you put against making the barrel extension themselves? I've got a flamethrower as a secondary, I want some more or less accurate fire with Fifty-9, I'm prepared to sacrifice auto fire to be able to shoot deadly and accurately. I just take out the extension and use it. If you don't, just do not.

I'd like to hear from ShadowBlade himself. Looks like none of the devs ever paid any attention to this thread.

Evidently you like to double wield F-9's because it's an overpowered combination. I like, too. But I dislike disbalance, that's why we should say bye-bye to Fifty-9 dual wielding.

But, one thing I worry about for balance with the barrel extension, if it's single fire yet does more damage per bullet, then you got a fairly accurate carbine with a 45 round clip, so I'd say you should still be able to fire full auto, but maybe give it a feature like the rail gun; it's got a charge meter, but each shot drains from it, and each consecutive shot drains more than the previous, but in the end you'd pretty much be able to fire maybe 5-7 shots before the charge is drained. This of course recharges when not in use, but it might be kind of cool and doesn't really take away the main use of the Fifty-9: Rain a lead death upon thine enemies.

Author:	Baklajan [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:03 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Just came to my mind. First. An upgrade to Fifty-9. I absolutely love its 'toggle stock' animation, but find it mostly useless, since you move most of the time, and it adds some inaccuracy while moving (surprisingly enough, the rest of the guns don't suffer from having a stock) So, I thought to make an additional field modification for the Fifty-9 to keep its Toggle Stock function useful (to put it frankly, mostly to keep the cool animation): Here it is. An attachable barrel extension with magnetic accelerator and red dot sights. Q.: How is it activated? A.: You just press your Weapon Special button, then your character extends the stock (sic!), then attaches the barrel extension to the barrel and the weapon is ready for firing. The time you hit your Weapon Special key again, the guy detaches the extension and folds the stock back. Q.: What's this for? A.: It allows you to turn your Fifty-9 SMG into an Assault Carbine and back. Both have combat advantages and disadvantages. Q.: What's the barrel extension and how does it work? A.: The U-1337 barrel extension looks actually like a very long silencer that might as well be taken for an induction coil. Just some prolonged techy construct. It has built-in red dot sights. The big deal is that the barrel extension works as a bullet accelerator, functioning similarly to a railgun. Each time a bullet passes through this device, a powerful electromagnetic discharge accelerates the bullet and speeds up its rotation, thus increasing its stability and damage. Q.: What are the advantages and disadvantages of U-1337? A.: The device has to recharge for about 0,75 sec after each shot, so you can only place single shots while using it unless you want to fk it up along with the gun itself. Also, you can't use the melee attack until you detach the extension. These are the two biggest and only disadvantages. The advantages are: the damage is doubled, the accuracy is raised by some 65%. Instead of melee attack, the Weapon Special button toggles on and off red-dot sights like the Cobra pistol. The extended stock helps to maximize the benefits. Q.: What is it used for? Q.:** You can either use the Fifty-9 as a rapid-firing SMG in close combat or as a precise sniper-wannabe rifle (or better say carbine?). Increased accuracy and damage are fully balanced by the fact that you can't fire in auto mode or even frequent single (keep in mind the 0.75 sec pause) unless you detach the extension, which both takes quite a while to attach and detach: you also have to extend and fold the stock every time, which is done automatically in single sequence every time you activate the extension. Also, it doesn't have a sniper scope, so don't be afraid of possible disbalance. It won't ever make a full-blown sniper rifle. The idea was inspired to me by the original Fifty-9 description and the whole look of the gun, which is designed to have every possible extra feature that a gun could have An SMG pretending to be an assault rifle, a sniper rifle and a railgun at the same time, let alone the melee capability. Oh, I forget... why not add some silly-but-cool looking effect to the bullets which are fired from the barrel extension? Some Matrix-like crap or the tracer which fades away in the air after firing the railgun... Second. Melee with Flamethrower. Just imagine sticking a red-hot poker up your enemy's butt in BW. The more heats up the gun, the more melee damage the heavy nozzle inflicts. I can also fancy some metal spikes on it The flamethrower as well could have some temperature limit. If it heats up too badly, it explodes, taking the player to hell. Some bots, as well as some players, seem to be fond of flame-spamming. You have to dodge until they run out of fuel, those bastards. A temperature limit could solve the problem, so after the gun heats up, the only thing that you can do is trying to thwack your enemy with the red-hot spiked nozzle.

Author:	Raptorian [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:31 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
I like the additional transformation of the Fifty-9, and as we have two Special Function keys, the 2nd can be used to add the MA extension and flip the stock, and the first to remain the stock only, and depending on which mode and which key is pressed, it could switch from extended smg to carbine and back again. And the Flamethrower is easy enough to combat, either by spamming it with a high ROF weapon and puncturing the tank, taking the operator's head off or stay the Hell away and use a scoped weapon, so an over heat system would weaken it too much. Not to mention nothing survives a G5 mortar...

Author:	Baklajan [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:44 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Then let's add a melee ability to the flamethrower just for the fun of it, and I see no use for the stock as an independent function. As for the fifty-9, adding some inaccuracy while moving in exchange for a higher accuracy while standing still is a nonsense both from the point of the gameplay (everybody's moving all the time) and technics (why don't the rest of the guns behave like that? many of them have stocks, like the M50). But when you use a 'sniper extension', you have to make the gun as stable as possible, so you use the stock. Otherwise you go around Max-Payne style, with the stock folded (for a greater mobility) EDIT: when somebody's running like mad in close quarters, spamming corridors with fire, you won't have a spare second to aim your G5/Machinegun at him. The only thing you'll see while aiming is just a screen full of fire spray and then you're dead

Author:	Raptorian [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:09 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
You can still try, you might get a lucky headshot, rupture the tank or take him out with you, and you should retreat and fire to maximise your chances, but if he gets you, fair game. All's fair in love and Ballistic Weapons. Also I said stock only and full railgun as I was thinking perhaps dual-wield is disabled for that Fifty-9 while it has the MA barrel on, as it would be quite heavy, also to give more diversity to the Fifty-9 as a whole.

Author:	Baklajan [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:49 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
I was thinking that probably the fifty-9 could be restricted from dual wielding. I've got an idea to balance the loadout system, which divides all the guns into a few classes, and the main rule is that you can't wield two guns of the same type... just to keep people from having a machinegun and a flamethrower at the same time - you see, certain heavy weapon combinations often give certain unfair tactical advantages in some circumstanses... also a Lightning gun + a Sniper rifle... So basically you can wield a pistol (XRS10 goes in this section), an automatic weapon (assault rifles and SMGs, including Fifty-9, go here), an energy rifle (the Skrith gun and all the light lasers we'll se in future), a splash damage weapon (shotguns and almost anything that works like a shotgun) and a heavy gun (all the rest: machineguns, mortars, lightning gun, etc. etc.) Of course, you are still limited to one sidearm slot and two main weapon slots. You can have three guns, a melee weapon, a special item like a bunch of grenades, but you can't have two weapons of the same class. The point is that none on the battlefield can have more than one heavy weapon, or "duplicate" weapons like two different shotguns just to get double shotgun ammo on each ammo pickup. If you're sure you'll be better off with two light weapons, feel free to pick the ones you like. But you can't have two heavy weapons at the same time, and since each heavy weapon has some tactical disadvantages, everybody's forced to use their light weapon as effectively as the heavy one. In other words, everybody will be running around with one light and one heavy weapon except a handful of those who excel in light weapon handling and are sure that two light weapons will bring them more luck than a light and a heavy one. But no-one can abuse other guys any longer by picking a deadly accurate railgun and a devastating flamethrower... With this system, you can always choose "Dual Sidearm" as your primary weapon, then you get an extra sidearm of the same model in addition to the one you have selected in the sidearm slot - for dual wielding - instead of your primary weapon. XRS-10 is a machine pistol, so it should go in the sidearm category. Fifty-9, augmented with the barrel extension, is a full-blown assault carbine (also judging by its heavier look and the stock), and will make a fine regular weapon, primary or secondary, but not a sidearm. But you can still pick dual XRS-10 for your Sidearm and Primary weapon, resulting in a really devastating combination (dual machine pistols are sometimes more powerful than an assault rifle, so sacrificing your primary gun to get a chance for dual sidearm is a fair price), and a Fifty-9 as your secondary weapon. Due to its extremely high ammo capacity, Fifty-9 as a sidearm is a cheat (even single-wielded), while with the barrel extension it's sure to make a decent assault carbine. For the sake of balance, you have to wait for some seconds while switching it from the SMG mode to the rifle mode, apparently not in the middle of a gunfight. P.S. Buying weapons might be an excellent idea, but I was looking for a way to balance the loadout with as few changes as possible. I think I've found it. But it's up to the devs to decide.

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Additions to existing weapons. http://www.runestorm.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=33643	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Raptorian [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:20 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
So what you proposing is an extended GoW-style inventory system? It could work I suppose, though I would still like the option of having a minigun and sniper while on defence, as they work so differntly and well together. You can go into the loadout tab and check and uncheck what people start with, if you want a temporary solution. Also, dual XRSs are devastating, as it has a much high calibre than the 50-9 and the XK2, which rely on speed alone. This point is mainly to show the 50-9 isn't all powerful, and if I had the option of any SMG, I'd take the XRS for it's brute strength yet strange grace.

Author:	Baklajan [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:50 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Please tell the old idiot what GoW stands for. Well, everything can be made optional. Why not make another checkbox that will allow having two heavy weapons at once if the server admin chooses so? Though to me it's still a cheat. Just because they are so different and work so fine together, as you have put it. A guy with an assault rifle and a shotgun won't be a match to such a choice. He'd get easily killed with the sniper rifle at long range and by the minigun at short range. If you had a shotgun instead of the minigun and he had a flamethrower instead of the shotgun, that would be a fair match: both of you would be roughly equal in mid-range combat (single-barelled shotgun vs skrith rifle), he'll have an advantage in close combat (flamethrower) and you - an advantage in long-range combat (sniper rifle). As for the XRS, it's still a mere machine pistol, and it should have all the necessary drawbacks. The Cobra magnum has a hell of a calibre, but still it's balanced. Thus XRS could have a worse accuracy to get balanced, so a single XRS would be weaker, or better say less tactically flexible, than any other automatic weapon, but dual XRS's would be a bit more powerful than a M50 (anyway, they'll eat much more ammo as well). Remember that the XRS has a puny stub instead of a decent barrel, so its accuracy should be the lowest among all pistols and SMGs. The XRS silencer could also make an amazing barrel extension. The manual says nothing about the pros and cons as far as silencers are concerned. Their proper function doesn't make a huge difference - in a game like UT2004, it's too hard to stay undetected. But look, the XRS big fat silencer always gave me thoughts that there could be some sophisticated electronic gadget inside! Why not turn this silencer into a device technologically similar to the U-1337 barrel extension for Fifty-9, but with completely different functionality. Let's call it W-15. Because XRS is mainly a burst fire weapon, it can't be upgraded with powerful bullet accelerators since human technology can't provide a device that could speed up many bullets at a time without having to recharge for some time after each bullet. Don't expect much from mobile autonomous power supply units. So, W-15 is still an electromagnetic device, but it works quite differently from U-1337. When the bullet passes through the device, some of its own energy is absorbed to produce a magnetic field that spins the bullet up. In other words, the kinetic energy of the bullet is converted into its torsional torque. As a result, the bullet becomes much more stable, but the damage is decreased dramatically. Since W-15 also acts as a prolonged barrel as well, that also adds some stability to the bullets. You'll have to choose between a highly inaccurate devastating fire and an accurate fire, but with much less damage. Also that's a good way to get the silencers more specific. Not just some fashionable trinkets. P.S. I'm inclined to think that increasing a bullet's rotational momentum while decreasing its speed won't really result in an accuracy boost, but anyway it sounds like a fine sci-fi disclaimer...

Author:	Captain Xavious [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:34 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Whoa, whoa, whoa... Take it easy there... you mean to say you don't think the Fifty-9 isn't perfect already?! The stocks are in fact plenty useful. I have them out most of the time, despite my charging, running, berserker-like play-style. Now, maybe accuracy is lower when playing with a crosshair, I don't know, but I'm getting head shots left and right when running with the stocks out. Without crosshairs. The reason why (other then just pure skill ) is because the Fifty-9's are SMGs, a typically short ranged weapon. SMG's aren't known for their accuracy. Why I go with the stocks out is when I go to what I consider long range combat (30 Meters) and have a high hit rate at that range with the Fifty-9s, with out having to take a long time in the middle of a firefight to take them out. Also, reason why the stocks prove to be more inaccurate is because this gun is designed to be used on the run without the stock. Stocks out, the gun is significantly longer and quite frankly, do you think you could steady a stocked gun more accurately than a hand gun when running? If you are holding it properly, it'd be resting against your shoulder, and your shoulder is moving a lot when ruunning, and you can't really help that. Hands on the other hand are much more free of movement. Also, you know you can change Loadout to fit almost your exact preferences, right? As for the flamer being spammy, take a G5 to them as said earlier. You don't need to aim with a rocket. It's a rocket for crying out loud! They got a large splash radius! And I'm not really seeing why you think any of the guns are more powerful than any of the others... A sniper rifle combined with a lightning gun may seem unstoppable on paper ( I guess...) but pose very little threat to someone armed with a weapon they know and love. And for Fifty-9's not being dual wieldable? Hell no! That gun is designed for dual wielding! I have an honest question to ask you, and I mean no offense by it, but do you suck at BW or something...? You seem to think all these things are unbalanced, yet I have no problem taking out what you say are unbeatable combinations, and often I do it efficiently with a simple pineapple grenade or the SRS900, which everyone seems to think has too high of recoil.

Author:	Tyster [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:46 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
I'd like to add a nery comment about the induction-based bullet accelerator. Inductors requre a lot of energy to produce an appreciable magnetic field. We're talking a dozen amps at, say 3k Volts (delta) wouldn't even produce 1 Farad, If I recall my physics correctly (i don't have my handy equation sheet with me). To maintain realism, perhaps you'd need to have Lighning gun or Skrith rifle ammo for the energy source of this barrel add-on. Also, the barrel would have to be big and bulkky since magnetic flux is a function of the cross-seciton area.

Author:	Baklajan [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:47 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
2 Captain Xavious: I think they are unbalanced just because they are unbalanced. There are combinations which prevail more or less over other ones in certain circumstances, mostly depending on the map and its specifics. If you fail to notice that, I'm sorry. In some circumstances, you can beat anything with anything. In other, not. As for the Fifty-9, I don't think it's imperfect. It could just use a barrel extension to be more fun and diverse, that's just all. Neither I think it's mentioned anywhere that Fifty-9 was made for dual wielding. It's cool to dual-wield them, but that ruins the balance. Nothing that has a stock was designed for dual wielding. Even the Uzis and the Scorpios, though those belong to real life, and there isn't such a thing as dual wielding in real life, unless one is a mad f*r who wants to show off and get himself killed in no time. And you arguments justifying the current behaviour of Fifty-9 just suck. Because you'll get the same with anything that has a stock of the same length. I care for balance, you care for dual wielding. That's all. You just like the stock, why not put it straight instead of making up sophisticated justifications? I also like the animation. But as a feature, it's useless no matter how hard you try to convince yourself of the contrary. I'm trying to justify the stock, too. But I'm thinking about the fun and the balance at the same time. A barrel extension is a perfect way to make the gun more fun and justify the stock: how else would you wield a fifty-9 with a huge cylindric thingy attached to its front? If you don't like the extension, you are not forced to use it. You are free to use the Fifty-9 as an SMG or as a rifle. I just want to make BW better and balanced, that's all. The disbalances of the mod is the answer to the question why everybody's talking about the mod and almost nobody playing (actually a few hundred people from all around the world). Chaos UT is much less original, but perfectly balanced. That's why it's widely played but not talked about too much. Quote:** To maintain realism, perhaps you'd need to have Lighning gun or Skrith rifle ammo for the energy source of this barrel add-on. By the way, what are real life specs of a Skrith gun? Wasn't able to look it up in Wikipedia... See the P.S. in my previous message. Don't you think that the barrel extensions have autonomous hi-tech power supply units inside? Just like the Skrith sidearm, which doesn't need any ammo? I only said that it could look like an induction coil, but didn't say it was a real induction coil. If it were about induction, one would require a truck to carry a battery after him to feed a 0,5mm-calibre railgun.

Author:	Captain Xavious [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:04 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Baklajan wrote: I think they are unbalanced just because they are unbalanced. There are combinations which prevail more or less over another ones in certain conditions, mostly depending on the map and its specifics. If you fail to notice that, I'm sorry. If some combos are better than others, that's called synergy, not unbalanced. You have a large selection of weapons available because not every weapon will work great in any circumstance. Baklajan wrote: In some circumstances, you can beat anything with anything. In other, not. In any circumstance you can beat something with another thing. Simple as that. More skill may be required, or different tactics needed, but you can come out the victor no matter what. Just depends on what and how you do things. Baklajan wrote: As for the Fifty-9, I don't think it's imperfect. It could just use a barrel extension to to be more fun and diverse, that's just all. Neither I think it's mentioned anywhere that Fifty-9 was made for dual wielding. It doesn't need more diversity, you got a huge selection of diverse guns for that... As for being made for dual wielding or whatnot, I can ask the Devs if that makes you happy. Baklajan wrote: Nothing that has a stock wasn't designed for dual wielding. Even the Uzis and the Scorpios, though those belong to real life, and there isn't such a thing as dual wielding in real life, unless one is a mad f**r who wants to show off and get himself killed in no time. I know dual wielding isn't a very realistic thing, but for a video game's sake, lets just assume there is. As for the inaccuracy during running, that is a balancing factor, who cares how unrealistic it is? It's just a game after all. Baklajan wrote: And you arguments justifying the current behaviour of Fifty-9 just suck. Because you'll get the same with anything that has a stock of the same length. That may be, but read above. Baklajan wrote: I care for balance, you care for dual wielding. That's all. You just like the stock, why not put it straight rather than making up sophisticated justifications? I also like the animation. But as a feature, it's useless no matter how hard you try to convince yourself of the contrary. Care for dual wielding? You are gravely mistaken. The Fifty-9's are the only* thing I dual wield. And well, you are again mistaken, this time about the stock. It does increase accuracy when standing still. Don't be telling me I like the stocks merely because I like the animation (it is pretty cool though ), I actually do play BW for more than just appearance.

Author:	Baklajan [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:19 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
It doesn't decrease accuracy when you are running, the stock I mean. You are right to say that it increases accuracy while standing, though. But all in all, the stock is just a trinket without much functionality. Its main function consists in its looking cool. Also, you can fold and unfold it. That's great. As for the diversity, you are not the one to decide on that. BW's diversity is a trademark. There have been talks about accurate powerful rifles without auto fire some months ago, but such a rifle would stay unpopular (IMO). The barrel extension gets rid of all the inconsistensies descibed above. If you want to place devastating and accurate single shots, you just unfold the damned stock, stick the extention to the gun, and press fire. It gives some reason to fold the stock and unfold it from time to time thus satisfying the player's need to play around with it. If you want to run and rain fire and lead upon your enemies, you fold the stock, put the extension into your backback, and go on. If you think Fifty-9 is inaccurate with the stock folded, that can be easily fixed as a balance issue. So you just tried to find trouble where there was none. Evidently you like to double wield F-9's because it's an overpowered combination. I like, too. But I dislike disbalance, that's why we should say bye-bye to Fifty-9 dual wielding. As for the synergy, on certain maps... on quite a lot of maps, I must say... people are forced to run with a machinegun and a sniper rifle to survive, while shotguns and assault rifles are put aside. That doesn't look like the synergy you're talking about. I'm talking about an o p t i o n to restrict wielding two weapons of the same class at the same time and an o p t i o n to add an additional main weapon slot to the loadout. If you don't like it, don't use. Some people who are very fussy about fair play and balance (like myself) would say a huge THANK YOU if the devs added these options, though. So again, you are trying to invent trouble out of nothing... P.S. Quote: I know dual wielding isn't a very realistic thing, but for a video game's sake, lets just assume there is. I meant to say that even in videogames, guns don't have redundant details. If a gun has a stock, it's to be held with two hands. If someone invents a gun which is supposed to be dual wielded, it won't have a stock. Fifty-9 has a blade, it can't be operated effectively with the stock unfolded. If it were a mere SMG, why attach the stock? So there must be some reason. Like field modifications to turn the gun into something else. That would be a lot of fun, as well. Simple as that. Pistols and XRS are what are meant to be dual wielded, and Fifty-9 is the best candidate to evolve into multifunctional assault carbine. That just perfectly fits the guns background. An ambitious product, it is. Also, I doubt there won't be any new machine pistols. Why not make another model, without stock and blades, which resembles the Fifty-9 in operation, but has a lesser ammo capacity, thus perfectly fitting the sidearm class? That's what I would call a gun made for dual wielding, just like the XRS machine pistol. I'm not a dual wielding hater, just on the contrary. But if we've got balance issues, it's the issues that have to go, not the balance and fun.

Author:	Bjossi [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:44 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
I'm not gonna spend 4 hours reading all these posts to say that I think the Fifty-9 is perfect as it is now. I think I read about an inventory idea. If it is an inventory system like in RPG games, HELL NO.

Author:	Baklajan [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:48 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Bjossi wrote: I'm not gonna spend 4 hours reading all these posts to say that I think the Fifty-9 is perfect as it is now. I think I read about an inventory idea. If it is an inventory system like in RPG games, HELL NO. I feel sorry for you. Extremely sorry. There wasn't a single word about a diablo-styled inventory nowhere above. Please try and learn to read before posting. Or just don't waste you keyboard to spill 'space filler' instead of argumented posts. As for the Fifty-9, nothing is perfect in this imperfect world... how can you reject an idea without getting to know it? Sad indeed...

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Author:	Baklajan [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:07 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Quote: But I thought you said the shots would lose damage because some of the liniear momentum is put into a spinning action. Also, one single shot from the Fifty-9 is not devastating unless you plant it in the head. Please confess: did you try to analyze the first post in this thread after reading the whole of it? I suspect no. The U-1337 accelerator for the Fifty-9 increases both spinning momentum and overal kinetic energy of the bullet, while W-15 for the XRS-10 converts the bullet's overall kinetic energy into spinning momentum. If you want to know why, read my previous posts a bit more carefully. I don't give a rotten egg about people pretending to be the devs' closest associates while 'not being developers themselves'. I'm 30 and have heard this tale a thousand times since I first discovered Internet. If I find a balance issue, I try to post it so the d e v e l o p e r s might take a look. Dually wielded Fifty-9 is just a big gaping hole in BW's balance. If the devs want their mod to be popular, they should prefer balance to cool looks. I'm speaking here on behalf of some 70 players of my private BW server. They're concerned with balance just as me. P.S. angry my ideas have nothing to do with changing the menus. Just restrict the dual wielding for Fifty-9, make an option for a convenitent controls mapping, and probably make the guns more diverse. What would you put against making the barrel extensions? I've got a flamethrower as a secondary, I want some more or less accurate fire with Fifty-9, I'm prepared to sacrifice auto fire to be able to shoot deadly and accurately. I just take out the extension and use it. If you don't, just do not. At least, the extensions would be more useful than the silencers (which are just some sort of fashionable, yet useless kitsch) As for the menus again... looks like you can't read long posts with enough attention. First, you pick up a shotgun in your primary slot. Then you open your secondary slot and see all the shotguns greyed out. And so forth, and so on. Nothing would get ugly. What's not available, is greyed out. The damned menus stay virtually the same! Also I have suspicions that you think I'm trying to introduce an option to restrict whole classes of weapons. If you read my posts once more, you'll see that I'm trying to make it impossible (as an option) to have two guns of the same class at the same time, but no classes of weapons are left out.

Author:	Captain Xavious [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:23 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Baklajan wrote: Please confess: did you try to analyze the first post in this thread after reading the whole of it? I suspect no. Ah, I see now. I mistook te XRS-10 silencer for what you propsed for the Fifty-9. Sorry about that. Baklajan wrote: The U-1337 accelerator for the Fifty-9 increases both spinning momentum and overal kinetic energy of the bullet, while W-15 for the XRS-10 converts the bullet's overall kinetic energy into spinning momentum. If you want to know why, read my previous posts a bit more carefully. Yep, I see now, read above. Baklajan wrote: I don't give a rotten egg about people pretending to be the devs' closest associates while 'not being developers themselves'. I'm 30 and have heard this tale a thousand times since I first discovered Internet. If I find a balance issue, I try to post it so the d e v e l o p e r s might take a look. I'm not suggesting that I have some influence over what happens with BW, I'm just saying that that whole Mod section of the forums gives some info that most people wouldn't know. Baklajan wrote: Dually wielded Fifty-9 is just a big gaping hole in BW's balance. If the devs want their mod to be popular, they should prefer balance to cool looks. I'm speaking here on behalf of some 70 players of my private BW server. They're concerned with balance just as me. I'm just not seeing how your additions would balance the fifty-9 in any way... it seems to me it'd make it too versatile and overpowered. Baklajan wrote: P.S. angry my ideas have nothing to do with changing the menus. Just restrict the dual wielding for Fifty-9, make an option for a convenitent controls mapping, and probably make the guns more diverse. What would you put against making the barrel extension themselves? I've got a flamethrower as a secondary, I want some more or less accurate fire with Fifty-9, I'm prepared to sacrifice auto fire to be able to shoot deadly and accurately. I just take out the extension and use it. If you don't, just do not. Uh... you mention all these options for BW, and there has to be some place to enable them. That will add quite a bit to the menus. (I'm not just referring to this idea by the way.) Also, I am pretty sure I did misunderstand the option to disable having two of the same gun at once (all these lines of text makes things a bit confusing ). But again, the option to choose which ones will add more options in the BW window. That is something that can not be avoided with options, its just that the options you suggest would have to take up a large amount of area in order to implement. As for why I'm against this idea is that it completely changes the functionality of the gun. It's supposed to be a short range weapon, great for pit fights and stuff; does the job nicely. What you are proposing would make a damn fine new gun altogether though. The idea itself I'm not against, its just the changing of the Fifty-9 so drastically is what I don't like.

Author:	Baklajan [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:32 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Just imagine a guy unfolding the stock, than attaching the extension. It'll take him 5 or 6 seconds. After doing that, he can no longer fire bursts or auto. He now has a rifle - accurate, yet not overpowered. Probably not even as powerful as an M50, which freely switches between single and auto in NO time. Fifty-9's main specification is close combat and auto fire, and this new mode is just complementary. So it won't beat an M50. Than imagine the guy detaching the extension and folding the stock. Another 5 seconds. I specially noted it out that due to this pause, you can't switch in the middle of a gunfight, so you can't combine advantages of both modes of a Fifty-9, so it's not overpowered. If there were just two fire modes which could be switched between in no time, than I'll be of same opinion with you. But with a pause of 5 secs, all the "overpoweredness" vanishes in thin air. As for the overall effectiveness, see above. It won't ever get better than an M50. The idea developed around the fact that the Fifty-9 has an almost useless stock. But if some crazy guys try to combine a 45-round magazine, a blade and a stock, they're sure to add laser sights, a barrel extension and a bullet accelerator. All of my ideas are based on the weapon's background. I think that the only thing which is overpowered about Fifty-9 is that it can be wielded dually. As for my loadout proposition, if Fifty-9 becomes an assault carbine and XRS-10 goes into the sidearm section, that will help to create a balanced loadout system without having to buy weapons. I'm tired of people who play on my server complaining to me about the horrendous crappiness of the loadout balance and dual wielding. But they haven't got a better UT mod to play, the poor ones...

Author:	Baklajan [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:38 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
I'd like to hear from ShadowBlade himself. Looks like none of the devs ever paid any attention to this thread.

Author:	EnteR [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:55 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Or they still is reading it... because you write so much...

Author:	OCAdam [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Okay, read the whole topic even. Bak, you seem to only cause trouble when you post... --- The Fifty-9 is already damn versatile as is with the blades and super fast reloading. These guns were meant to be dual-weilded, and balance is not lost here. Hell, if you know what you're doing, you can kill a dual-Fifty-9er with a simple RS8 with the silencer on and lasers off. Meaning harder to kill with if you couldn't tell. I use the Fifty-9s since I like to run around like a madman, and so I can pour out more bullets per second than other guns (but not as fast as dual XK2's, but those are my silence weapons and waste too many bullets per second). To call the Fifty-9 unbalanced by dual-weilding is really stupid. Try this: Go to both the US military and say their M4's are overpowered, and then tell terrorists their guns are overpowered and they should go back to using pistols on both sides. Yeah... Get used to playing with the variety of guns. Seriously, I can find the best combos to be either Fifty-9s or AM67's but I don't call either unbalanced and overpowered together. Think, with this mindset you might as well start saying the Minigun is overpowered and needs to have recoil that shoots you straight up after 3 bullets. In reality, it just ends up being the fighter who makes a gun good or bad. If you know how, you can make even a thrown X3 better than an R78 at sniper ranges. Not very likely, but.... you get my point. Nothing is overpowering the other. It just hapens to be how the gun can be used in more than 2 situations. And to ad an extension actually would unbalance the gun. In your mindset, that should seriously say it would unbalance it further from what you've called it to be unbalanced.

Author:	Bjossi [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Baklajan wrote: I'd like to hear from ShadowBlade himself. Looks like none of the devs ever paid any attention to this thread. Man, you need to cut them some slack, as Xav said above, internet access in S-Africa is very expensive and slow on most areas so they come in "waves". Because your posts are pretty big, they might need lots of time to prepare a reply too.

Author:	Ganome [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Baklajan wrote: Evidently you like to double wield F-9's because it's an overpowered combination. I like, too. But I dislike disbalance, that's why we should say bye-bye to Fifty-9 dual wielding. I can see what your getting at, but isn't that a little extreme? I admit, it does seem silly to dual wield them with the stocks extended, but it is awesome when you go to town slashing away like a psycho. As for being overpowered, they don't have nearly as much lethality as a pair of AM-67s or even two skrith pistols. As for the stocks not helping, have you ever just walked with them out? I think that the laser sight might be alright, but I think it should be blue to match the rest of the motif, or they could make alternate colors for the gun itself (thinking red, purple, green, and/or yellow.) Oh, I do love the idea of poking people with the heated flame thrower nozzle. That itself looks very painful if not lethal. Just noticed your statement on stealth, and I gotta tell you your wrong. Sure stealth doesn't work in massive bot matches, but in a player only match, stealth can be key. Thanks to Xavious, I have been assassinated by nearly every weapon out there, including, of all things, the flame thrower.

Author:	Baklajan [ Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:10 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Hello. You have my apologies for posting that kind of ideas considering the Fifty-9, guys. I've just shown the Fifty-9 to a relative of mine who has served in the Russian military for six years. What he has said utterly shocked me. Here's a translation of his words from Russian: "Are you an idiot? Look here, this gun isn't made for holding it with two hands. It has a really sharp blade under the barrel, how are you going to hold that with two hands?! Moreover, look at this stock. Stop telling me tales, this gun was made for single-handed operation. Don't you know that many stocks for SMGs are designed to let the user fire the gun with one hand? SMG stocks are quite a different business than the rifle stocks. Fifty-9's stock is wide and curved in such a way that it could be pressed against the fold of your elbow. Look here, you can't fire this SMG from the hip* without having its stock unfolded. It's designed in such a way that when you hold the gun low with you elbow bent at 90 degrees, it keeps the gun stable while firing non-aimed. Otherwise you'll have your bullets jumping all over the place. This Fifty-9 isn't that accurate, but at least when you fire it from the hip with the stock unfolded, it's sure to have a stable grouping of shots. No matter if you stand or run or what. But if you want to fire this SMG aimed, pressing the stock against your chest, you'll have to bend in half and stand almost still, because the stock's too short. If you want to aim it and run, you have to fold the stock and stretch your hands forward, just like if you were aiming a pistol. Single shots or bursts of 2-3 bullets will be more or less accurate, at least much more accurate than single shots while firing from the hip, but burst fire is bound to be almost useless at distances larger than 20 m. So you either unfold the stock and fire without aiming, which gives you good mobility and a very stable bullet spread (while the accuracy will leave much to be desired), or fold the stock and fire it like a pistol, which will get you some rather accurate single shots, also short bursts maybe, but it'll be useless for burst fire." I trust this guy a lot because he had a lot of time getting familiar with real guns. He was 100% right to note out the curve of the stock of a Fifty-9 is designed in such a way that it can stretch along the user's forearm, resting against the user's elbow. Most SMGs I'm familiar with have a notably longer narrow stock that won't allow to hold the gun fitting the user's hand like a glow. Guns like the MP5 family won't allow that, but Fifty-9 seems to be designed for being wielded single-handed with its stock unfolded. *to fire from the hip - a Russian idiom meaning to fire without aiming, holding the gun low along the side of your body. I don't know an English equivalent to this expression, so please help me out. In a nutshell, the stock for Fifty-9 should function as follows: 1. When you are firing non-aimed with the stock off, the gun just sprays bullets all over the place no matter whether you are standing or moving. 2. When you are firing non-aimed with the stock on, the gun has a very neat bullet spread, though no individual bullet is accurate. The gun just doesn't sway and bob like mad even if you are firing long bursts, but don't expect a great overall accuracy. 3. When you are firing aimed with the stock on, you'll get a severe speed penalty, but the gun behaves much like an assault rifle, though not as accurate. 4. When you are firing aimed with the stock off, you don't get any speed penalty. But the gun behaves much like a pistol. It allows to fire rather accurate single shots or very short bursts, but if you dare to fire long bursts while aiming with the stock folded, it'll spray bullets worse than an XRS-10 misused in the same way. The concept contradicts what we have now, but I think it'll please even those who have a conservative look upon the Fifty-9. (Yes, it's a great surprise to everybody that the gun is meant to be fired with the stock unfolded while not aiming and running. But at least the idea comes from a guy who knows how to handle weapons.) So, probable function distribution for Fifty-9 could be as follows: Weapon Special B - fold/unfold stock manually. Weapon Special A - turn on/off automatical stock handling: if on, the stock is automatically unfolded while not aiming and folded while aiming to keep the compromise between accuracy and mobility; moreover, holding the gun with the stock unfolded while not aiming has no advantages and only gets you a penalty... As of the barrel extensions, I think something of the kind could exist for the Fifty-9, but with a less global effect. Probably just turning off the auto fire in exchange for more powerful single fire... Since it'll take some time to detach and attach the extension, I doubt somebody can use it as a cheat.

Author:	Captain Xavious [ Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:29 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Alright, this makes a bit more sense now. This is something I could agree with. But, one thing I worry about for balance with the barrel extension, if it's single fire yet does more damage per bullet, then you got a fairly accurate carbine with a 45 round clip, so I'd say you should still be able to fire full auto, but maybe give it a feature like the rail gun; it's got a charge meter, but each shot drains from it, and each consecutive shot drains more than the previous, but in the end you'd pretty much be able to fire maybe 5-7 shots before the charge is drained. This of course recharges when not in use, but it might be kind of cool and doesn't really take away the main use of the Fifty-9: Rain a lead death upon thine enemies. Also, the lower the charge, the less extra damage is added. I still say your original idea isn't bad, but it'd just fit more for it's own gun, which would be cool. Oh yeah, and firing from the hip is exactly that in English.

Author:	Ganome [ Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:36 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Ooh, so both parties were wrong See what happens when you don't do your research. I didn't know either, but it makes sense now.

Author:	Baklajan [ Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:44 am ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Quote: But, one thing I worry about for balance with the barrel extension, if it's single fire yet does more damage per bullet, then you got a fairly accurate carbine with a 45 round clip, so I'd say you should still be able to fire full auto, but maybe give it a feature like the rail gun; it's got a charge meter, but each shot drains from it, and each consecutive shot drains more than the previous, but in the end you'd pretty much be able to fire maybe 5-7 shots before the charge is drained. This of course recharges when not in use, but it might be kind of cool and doesn't really take away the main use of the Fifty-9: Rain a lead death upon thine enemies. If we take away the accuracy bonus from the barrel extension, then we'd rather get just a 45-round clip pistol with fairly high damage, low fire rate and average accuracy - if we implement a 0.75 sec (or more) obligatory pause for the extension to recharge after each shot (as suggested earlier by me), this pistol won't be too overpowered. And what about the stock, I propose just to drop some realism points and introduce a simple penalty/bonus system to use with the stock: Stock unfolded, unaimed - an average speed penalty, stable bullet spread, medium accuracy Stock folded, unaimed - no speed penalty, wide bullet spread, low accuracy Stock unfolded, aimed - a serious speed penalty, stable bullet spread, good accuracy Stock folded, aimed - a negligible speed penalty, wide bullet spread, very inaccurate auto fire, but good accuracy with single shots and bursts of 2-3 I don't see a reason to make a whole new gun for it. The barrel extension idea perfectly fits into the gun's background, and the stock just needs some gameplay justification to be useful. I just thought that if the ammo pickup for the Fifty-9 was severely reduced, that'll surely balance the gun. It could still be in the sidearms section and dually wielded, but one would think twice before bullet spamming with two Fifty-9. And of course, the same ammo pickup amount no matter if you chose one or two Fifty-9's in the loadout screen. It's just like the G5 mortar. The most powerful weapon in BW so far, but you won't get too many rockets so it's balanced.

Author:	Wup [ Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Additions to existing weapons.
Yawn.....Fix the Bugs first...