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It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
http://www.runestorm.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=39460		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Shyke [ Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
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Author:  Kaboodles [ Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
This isn't really a realism mod. Some elements of the mod might move towards more realism, like recoil or inaccuracy from movement, but absolute realism isn't the goal here I think. I mean players here can double-jump and just about fly through the map, so some unrealistic weapon behavior might not be so out of place. Although more realistic silencer mechanics (they currently decrease damage, increased recoil in at least one of the guns, and are totally silent to anyone but the one firing) I would very much welcome.

As for the armor, we're not exactly dealing with your old 20th century kevlar. Armor would be useless if many of the guns can penetrate them, and balance would be utterly destroyed if some guns can penetrate armor and others can't

As for the rail gun trail, it just looks cool and helps to balance it against the R78 sniper, since it's much more visible. Doesn't do a whole lot to balance it though. The rail gun is much more effective than the sniper rifle in all situations, so bleh.

Also, as an ex-soldier, what do you think about moving while firing? Realistically I don't expect anyone to be running while successfully firing a beast like the Minigun at the same time.
Author:  Shyke [ Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
"Also, as an ex-soldier, what do you think about moving while firing? Realistically I don't expect anyone to be running while successfully firing a beast like the Minigun at the same time."

I've seen it done. A fellow soldier took the challenge when we got a 5.56mm Minigun in. We had turned down the cycle rate to 600rpm and gave him a connected belt of 600 rounds. It was extremely inaccurate but he ran while firing a Minigun. I think it was the next day and he wanted us to turn it up a bit. We turned it up to 6000rpm and told him it was only up a "bit". Needless to say, he let go of it pretty quickly after he started firing. We all got in shit for that because the motor got damaged when it slammed against the wall behind him.
Author:  Kaboodles [ Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
Hah, nice.

Nobody uses the lower RPMs for this minigun though. We all just turn it up to the 3600 RMP max.

How about smaller weapons? Pistols, assault rifles, SMGs, etc.?
Author:  Shyke [ Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
In theory you should be able to walk and fire with it at 1200rpm and it should be about as inaccurate as the 3600rpm is presently. With 2400rpm you should have to stand still and crouch and 3600rpm should be deploy-only.

Believe it or not, pistols suffer more recoil inaccuracy then most assault rifles on full auto due to the stock on the assault rifle. Your wrist, as it takes less energy before moving makes a pistol flail if you fire fully automatic while if it had a stock, the spread would be MUCH closer.
Author:  OCAdam [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
Kaboodles wrote:
Hah, nice.

Nobody uses the lower RPMs for this minigun though. We all just turn it up to the 3600 RMP max.

How about smaller weapons? Pistols, assault rifles, SMGs, etc.?


I use 1200RPM all the time, unless I go into Bullet Time.
Author:  CEO_KAZUYA_MNT [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
Shyke wrote:
"Also, as an ex-soldier, what do you think about moving while firing? Realistically I don't expect anyone to be running while successfully firing a beast like the Minigun at the same time."

I've seen it done. A fellow soldier took the challenge when we got a 5.56mm Minigun in. We had turned down the cycle rate to 600rpm and gave him a connected belt of 600 rounds. It was extremely inaccurate but he ran while firing a Minigun. I think it was the next day and he wanted us to turn it up a bit. We turned it up to 6000rpm and told him it was only up a "bit". Needless to say, he let go of it pretty quickly after he started firing. We all got in shit for that because the motor got damaged when it slammed against the wall behind him.
lmao dude im still in the military and i never thought of ripping a mini gun off fighter jet and trying to weild the beast of a weapon dude your friend has big balls to go and tot a mini gun
Author:  Shyke [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
"lmao dude im still in the military and i never thought of ripping a mini gun off fighter jet and trying to weild the beast of a weapon dude your friend has big balls to go and tot a mini gun"

We didn't take it off of a fighter jet. It was freshly manufactured and it needed to be properly fitted with a feed system.
Author:  Echo 419 [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
Kaboodles wrote:
Nobody uses the lower RPMs for this minigun though. We all just turn it up to the 3600 RMP max.


I use 1200 every time I use the Mini gun because I can burst fire without suffering from to much recoil and being able to recover my accuracy relatively quick
Author:  Mr.UglyPants [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
Kaboodles wrote:
Nobody uses the lower RPMs for this minigun though. We all just turn it up to the 3600 RMP max.


I always use 1200 rpm. I will only ever use 3600 rpm when its deployed.
Author:  Shyke [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
Mr.UglyPants wrote:
Kaboodles wrote:
Nobody uses the lower RPMs for this minigun though. We all just turn it up to the 3600 RMP max.


I always use 1200 rpm. I will only ever use 3600 rpm when its deployed.

(I finally found the quote button)
I only use 3600rpm against vehicles, otherwise, 1200rpm.
Author:  atc [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
I usually deploy miniguns on strategic points for later use, normally on ctf/ons. sometimes even a bot on my team uses it properly (seems to work only once per game tho).

About the double jump, I think the first mutator that added permanently to UT2k4 was one that removed it, among other tweaks like slightly slower movement and doubled health to vehicles (since couldnt find a mutator that allowed to propely stop small caliber bullets from killing tanks).
Author:  Kaboodles [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
You can use 3600 RPM even while running. Just point the thing down at a 45 degree angle and you'll have an ultra-rapid-fire M290 on your hands. Part of the reason I could not comprehend why its default spawn point was at the UT minigun. It's so obviously a superweapon I couldn't comprehend how you could do that.

And the Lightning gun swapping with the Link Gun. Also very bad.
Author:  OCAdam [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
Kaboodles wrote:
You can use 3600 RPM even while running. Just point the thing down at a 45 degree angle and you'll have an ultra-rapid-fire M290 on your hands. Part of the reason I could not comprehend why its default spawn point was at the UT minigun. It's so obviously a superweapon I couldn't comprehend how you could do that.

And the Lightning gun swapping with the Link Gun. Also very bad.


Well for bots it's perfect. They can never hit you!
Author:  Bjossi [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
I deploy the mini to fire at 3600 RPM, it is just so much fun making dozens of holes into the same bot in a matter of a second.
Author:  SX [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
Shyke has a point, as a weapon observer, I know 9MM will not penetrate armor, 5.56 or 7.76 MM will take out most armor systems (except the dragon skin)

i would like to see this in action.
Author:  Shyke [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
Storm X wrote:
Shyke has a point, as a weapon observer, I know 9MM will not penetrate armor, 5.56 or 7.76 MM will take out most armor systems (except the dragon skin)

i would like to see this in action.

5.56mm rounds usually leave bruises on targets wearing Kevlar and against hard armors or Dragon Skin, it virtually does nothing.
Author:  SX [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
I forgot about that. Thanks! :D
Author:  Kaboodles [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
If we were to implement these things, weapon balance would be severely affected. The RS8 and the 9mm submachine guns would be useless against anyone with shields.
Author:  OCAdam [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
Kaboodles wrote:
If we were to implement these things, weapon balance would be severely affected. The RS8 and the 9mm submachine guns would be useless against anyone with shields.


RS8 actually would do something still. It's a 10MM gun.
Author:  uzi4u [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
Ever been considered that the rounds i the Archon universe might not be 9mm Luger? I know that the .45 is not .45 ACP.

Of course, 9mm, using heavy hollow points is decent enough defense ammo- the starter of the thread was in the army to see those tests- army can't use hollow points by the Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III. The military, using expanding ammo, would be a war crime.
Author:  Shyke [ Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
Uzi4U wrote:
Of course, 9mm, using heavy hollow points is decent enough defense ammo- the starter of the thread was in the army to see those tests- army can't use hollow points by the Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III. The military, using expanding ammo, would be a war crime.

Where are you getting your information from? Hollow point rounds mushroom outwards when they hit. A 9mm hollow point does little to Kevlar besides slowly rip the first layer of threads. Hollow point are highly effective against unarmored personell, often killing them if stuck in center mass or disabling them if stuck else where.
Author:  Kaboodles [ Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:50 am ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
OCAdam wrote:
Kaboodles wrote:
If we were to implement these things, weapon balance would be severely affected. The RS8 and the 9mm submachine guns would be useless against anyone with shields.


RS8 actually would do something still. It's a 10MM gun.


10mm low-velocity round. I don't think it's the size of the round that matters when it comes to penetrating armor. It's the design of the bullet (pointed with a full metal jacket is best I think) and the muzzle velocity, which would be rather low in this case. The silencer wouldn't work very well if the bullets were going fast enough to create enough noise by themselves.

EDIT: Would probably leave a hell of a bruise, but nothing life-threatening. Maybe break a rib or two.
Author:  Bjossi [ Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
I'm not sure why this thread exists, to be honest, because this mod is not a realistic one and hopefully never will.
Author:  uzi4u [ Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
Shyke wrote:
Uzi4U wrote:
Of course, 9mm, using heavy hollow points is decent enough defense ammo- the starter of the thread was in the army to see those tests- army can't use hollow points by the Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III. The military, using expanding ammo, would be a war crime.

Where are you getting your information from? Hollow point rounds mushroom outwards when they hit. A 9mm hollow point does little to Kevlar besides slowly rip the first layer of threads. Hollow point are highly effective against unarmored personell, often killing them if stuck in center mass or disabling them if stuck else where.



Well, damn, 9mm FMJ, or .44 mag FMJ for that manner isn't that effective against body armor, I know that. I didn't imply use against body armor.

Speakin' of body armor, any tests been done on your side of the border on Dragon Skin yet?
Author:  Shyke [ Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:34 am ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
Uzi4U wrote:
Speakin' of body armor, any tests been done on your side of the border on Dragon Skin yet?

I am not at the liberty to comment on that yet.
Author:  uzi4u [ Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
Gotcha. So, I take it that Canadian Military R+D doesn't invite the media like the Pentagon does. Of course, Dragon Skin, if the demonstration given on "FutureWeapons" is accurate, it's good stuff.
Author:  Shyke [ Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
Uzi4U wrote:
Gotcha. So, I take it that Canadian Military R+D doesn't invite the media like the Pentagon does. Of course, Dragon Skin, if the demonstration given on "FutureWeapons" is accurate, it's good stuff.

It's main weakness is .50cal threats... passes clean through.
Author:  Kaboodles [ Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
Bjossi wrote:
I'm not sure why this thread exists, to be honest, because this mod is not a realistic one and hopefully never will.


It's not a "realism" mod in the Red Orchestra sense, but it has many elements that point towards realism, like the complex aiming and recoil system. It's kinda why I'm a little irritated at the mod at the moment. It's got these features that promote a slower, more tactical game, but one feature (Sprint) that turns that notion on its head makes it an even faster game than vanilla UT.

On that note, somebody please fix the Ballistic Sprint mutator. It makes no sense that jumps decrease the stamina bar but dodges and double-jumps do not.
Author:  ShadowBlade [ Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:11 am ]
Post subject:  It's been some time... (Weapon Realism)
hey.. welcome back ;)

to the point.. i can appreciate you point of view, being a soldier and all, and it's good to have such insight from someone who has actually tested such firearms :)

in the end, gameplay does play a big part on how our weapons recoil.. like in reality, staying still, crouching, and taking time to aim, really does pay off :)

in our next big project, TC, we should indeed tweak everything to it's finest ;)

glad you appreciate the minigun.. i like how it actually does fire 3600 RPM!! also, me and DC spent many hours discussing on how the MiniGun should start up.. i know now-days, that they start firing almost instantly, but we just thought it might be cooler if it took some time :D
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