That depends purely on distance. You'll be forced to make pauses between shots while shooting from a long range while mid-range or point-blank fire could stay rapid, the barrel deviation will be a bit less of a concern in this case. This is definitely better than plain cutting of fire rate.

As for clip reduction, I say no and will be saying so from now on. 'Assault' stands for prolonged fire duration, that's why assault guns ought to have a big clip. But making an SMG out of a pistol while keeping it just a pistol (obviously for the sake of compactness and to serve as a small sidearm which you can carry along with a bigger gun) is sure to result in some undesirable effect like increased recoil, which is to prevent people using the AM67 as a kind of a SMG and an easy-kill weapon.

Recoil increase and damage decrease won't be enough to balance it.

There's still the matter of the flash device giving you 2-3 seconds to finish a guy or reload it if you happen to run out. Prolonged fire duration would be a non-issue even if we reduced the clip size to 8-10.

Nobody wants to talk about pistols anymore it seems. Time to move on to our next topic, which is:

[size=14px]III. Shotguns and SMGs[/size]

An odd combination, but neither group is really large enough to warrant their own topics, so I'm lumping them together. First,


[size=14px]SMGs[/size]


XK2 Submachinegun: This gun sucks in a big way. While it's very accurate when crouched or standing still and has very low recoil, it's far too unstable for run and gun, which is very important in this game. It's not good when a gun twice its size and power is actually more accurate to fire on the move, and you're much better off with a full machine gun or rifle when crouched, as they do a lot more damaged anyway.

I would recommend decreasing its chaos to about the level of the M50 and increasing its recoil just a tad to compensate for the decrease in chaos. An extendable stock would also be dandy to differentiate between run-and-gun and stationary firing.

Also please fix the inconsistency with the Ammo pickups. Pickups give you 2 magazines with 40 rounds each, instead of 50.


Fifty-9 Machine pistol: This one can use some toning down I think. It's way too accurate at range, even without the stock (which doesn't seem to do much anyway). A machine-pistol should be strictly a short-range weapon.

The reason for this is that its recoil pattern is too clean (I mean just look at it. It's got blue flames and a blade at the tip!). A more chaotic, random recoil pattern (kinda like the XRS-10's or the M353) with more horizontal movement in addition to the upwards climb would do the trick. This would also put some functionality into the stock, as there's hardly any noticeable difference between stocked and unstocked Fifties. The stock would eliminate most of the random chaotic recoil, though leaving the upwards climb intact, while increasing chaos when moving.

Also, this gun is a rusty, spike-studded dildo when dual-wielded. There's actually a lot of problems with Dual-wielding I would like to address in the next topic.


XRS-10 Machine pistol: Not a lot of changes needed here. I would like to see its recoil pattern changed to more of an upwards climb than the random shaking it has now, as the gun looks a lot cleaner than the Fifty.

Also maybe increase the magazine capacity to 36, as it's a much nicer number for 3-round bursts.

This gun is also capable of rape when dual-wielded, but again, that's a problem with dual-wielding itself, not necessarily the gun.



[size=14px]Shotguns[/size]


M763 Shotgun: Somewhat difficult to use when running and gunning unless you iron-sight all the time (which is also another feature of BW that needs some balance tweaking). It does indeed have a tighter spread than all the other shotguns, but it's quite a bit harder to use as a result.

To get this shotgun into shape, its spread pattern should be quite a bit tighter than it currently is, like a hunting shotgun or something. It should have far beyond the range of the other shotties, dangerous even at medium. The pattern should also definitely be more consistent, as right now there's a wild variation in where the pellets go, even when you're standing stock still and aiming with iron sights.

In addition, it's alt-fire falls short (though it's supremely satisfying and hilarious to beat someone to death with a shotgun). The reason for this is that the long-gun feature makes it impossible to just run up someone at point blank and clobber them to death. The long-gun points the shot away from the target, even though the shotgun is already raised, so instead of bludgeoning the poor sap in the head, you hit nothing but the air next to him, which is incredibly annoying to say the least. Definitely fix this please.


MRS138 "Tactical" Combat Shotgun: Nothing particularly tactical about this gun I believe, but a decent shotgun. It could use a more consistent spread pattern though. I've seen the gun fire pellets in a ring-shaped pattern, with all of them hitting completely around the target, which is annoying as hell. A faster firing rate would definitely make this gun a winner.

It should also definitely have the least chaos while moving.


M290 Double-barreled Shotgun: This gun definitely needs some work, and is one of only two guns outright banned from our server (The other being the AM67). The reason for this is that it completely blasts the pants off of the other shotties. It's literally firing two M763s at once.

I'm not sure how to approach this weapon. It's justifiably twice as powerful as the M763, as it's like two of them duct-taped together. At point blank, a shot to the head does about 500-600 damage. To put it all in perspective, the G5 does 200 max damage and a fully-charged Rail gun to the head around 400, if memory serves.

This gun also basically negates any range advantage the M763 might have with sheer volume of fire. While the M763 has a much tighter spread, the M290 blasts so many pellets at a time that you'd get the same hitting-power as the M763 at the same range, but with a bigger chance of scoring a hit.

The best way I think is to leave the damage alone for the most part. You could lower the damage just a tad, it would logically nerf the M763 too, which actually won't be too bad as long as we beef up the M763 in another category.

Double the recoil of this gun and increase the firing rate, as right now this gun can pump out shells at the same rate as the M763, but with double the power. More kickback for the gun would also definitely make each shot much more impressive, for more "wow" factor.

Also, why is the M290's spread pattern perfectly rectangular? It's always struck me as a little odd.

In terms of balance, here's how it should be:

Raw power: M290 >> MRS138 > M763
Range: M763 > M290 > MRS138
Firing rate: MRS138 = M763 >> M290
Chaos while moving: MRS138 > M763 > M290
Spread pattern consistency: M763 > MRS138 > M290


This topic is probably the one I'm least confident on. There's definitely imbalance in these guns, but balancing them would be hard. Also there's the lack of sleep which is factoring in quite nicely.

XK2 dualed is a beast but single isn't so hot. Likewise on the XRS. Fiftynine is overpowered in single (easy recoil pattern, good fire rate, good range, good accuracy - way too much for a weapon of its type) and in dual is an absolute joke. M763 is fine imo, and the MRS could do with a little tighter spread - the flashlight and the tazer mean it shouldn't excel too much as a standard shotgun. M290, agreed - overpowered as hell. Fires too fast, does too much damage and overall excels at its range in a way that's vastly superior to the other shotguns and compared to most other weapons at their respective ranges. I've played games entirely on the weapon and come out 30 kills 5 deaths versus people on our server who are capable at the game. Nerf plz, now.

What i think

XK2 SMG: the clip is fine because it is 50 rounds per clip. firing it needs to be toned down because whenever i play ut2004 it's just intolerable and i have to switch to a less recoiled gun. another needs to be toned, the firing rate, it's a little too fast but it needs to be fast for mowing skills.

59: i don't care much about this one

XRS10: 36? how about 39 for one more burst?

M763: i agree it needs to be tighter as for the alt how about using the butt instead of the foregrip?

MRS138: ring-shaped? doesn't look like from my POV but yeah needs to have a faster firing rate.

M290: this is probably my most used gun, But needs a higher recoil and needs a new alt, the one we have now just sucks, either beef up the alt or have a new alt fire

well proposed K

The spread pattern of the shotguns is randomized, so you don't get the same pattern every shot. Sometimes the pattern I get on the wall shows a bunch of pellets on the outside with almost nothing in the middle, which would get really annoying in the middle of a firefight where each shot counts. You point the gun straight at him but all the pellets go around.

ah now i know what you mean. this needs to be fixed, when i use the M763 or M290, then i use the Tatical, spreads nasty.

I can agree with much of this, here are my thoughts:

XK2 Submachinegun:
Definetly decrease the chaos, this weapon is capable of dishing out twice the damage the other SMG's ever will yet it sways around as badly as the railgun. For that it does not get used nearly as much.

I would like to see an extensible stock rather than another silencer myself. You can clearly see it has a stock but it is pretty much ignored. I sure would use it for a little more stability if I had the chance.

A stock might just suffice to address the stability issues with this supposed "lightweight" weapon. And If I can truly take advantage of its fast fire rate and healthy damage then it might be well balanced against the other SMG's anyway

Fifty-9 Machine pistol:
This is one of my favorite guns. I dont see any problem with it at all.

Should we increase the XK2's accuracy and the XRS's clip size then balancing this may not be so much of an issue. But a stock that makes a more obvious difference would be a welcome change.

XRS-10 Machine pistol:
Yep increase the clip size slightly, otherwise the weapon is fine by me.

M763 Shotgun:
This is if anything the most well balanced weapon there is but I most certainly agree that the melee attack must not be affected by long gun shunting.

I have long gun shifting disabled just so I can properly use the bludgeon. No arguments about making it the "sharpshooter" of the range of shotguns. I already feel its accuracy is what sets this weapon apart from the other shotguns.

MRS138 "Tactical" Combat Shotgun:
That handle below the shotgun must make an obvious difference in how this weapon is used. So yes to making this weapon quick to pump and stable to hold compared to the others.

No arguments with tweaking the spread of the shotgun but leave its damage the same.

M290 Double-barreled Shotgun:
I very much like blowing things up in one shot so I would not mind if the damage was kept the same.
If the M290 is the big Kahuna of damage then its fire rate and recoil cannot stay so yes to increasing the time it takes to pump the shotgun and yes to increasing recoil. But dont change the fire rate when making 2 single shots just the time it takes to load another 2.

The chaos is bad enough I think and should be left alone.

Balance chart
Raw power: M290 >> MRS138 > M763
Range: M763 > M290 > MRS138
Firing rate: MRS138 = M763 >> M290
Chaos while moving: MRS138 > M763 > M290
Spread pattern consistency: M763 > MRS138 > M290

Agreed

Yay, someone agrees with me on scoped revolvers! ^^

You kinda hit a sensitive spot for me: shotguns.

Here's how I see it.

M763: My weapon of choice. I personally can't use the other shottys with as much skill compared to this baby. It really doesn't need any boosts.

Lowest in damage, best in range. When killing zombies, I use this one for the stragglers and other, distant zombies that aren't in a big group, or occasionally big groups at long ranges.

It's grouping is unbelievable for a video game shotgun. Tell me one other case where the shotgun in a video game has this good of grouping. I for one love that. But, to make it have even tighter grouping...? Well, that actually would border on the line of unrealistic, and while that really isn't too big a deal to me, it wouldn't really feel too much like your typical beat-all, end-all weapon.

As for the melee, you can hit the enemies accurately with it up close, the trick is to just hold in the alt fire until the gun is back all the way. It is now unaffected by long gun. This of course, is all fine and dandy if you're charging at an enemy, just hold the alt fire in as you're coming at him and release when you're standing on his toes. But if you are in an intense melee battle, its not so useful. My suggestion is to learn where the gun hits when it is brought up by the long gun feature. After learning that, you can simply adjust your aim to make it hit. Also, please note that all melee for guns are affected this way by long gun. Tact shotty doesn't seem to really be affected by it, but that is due to the fact that it's a really short gun. And really, doesn't it make sense for melee weapons to be be better in, you know, melee, than your impromptu bludgeon?

MRS138: This gun is a heavy hitter. With one shot it does more damage than the M763, yet can hold 2 more of those power shots compared to the M290, but at a bit less damage.

It's range isn't really all that bad. Its about half way between the M763 and M290. The thing that's cuts it's range short is its lower amount of pellets. It only has about half as many than the 12 gauges, and that kinda makes a difference.

I too have seen instances where almost all the pellets miss the target, its kinda funny to see actually.

Again, the reason for this is the lack pellets. Not really a lot you can do to change that, just gotta live with it or die trying.

I personally use this for medium sized groups of zombies at medium distance, rarely do I use it for single zombies. Serves that purpose well.

M290: Hmm... not really to crazy about this one. range isn't enough for my liking. Add to that the fact that two barrels on a shotgun only serves to waste more ammo, and it becomes something rather low on my list 'o shotguns.

When you got shotguns, all you really need is one solid hit to kill the enemy. Knowing this, the two barrels are rather useless to me, so I usually end up wasting a shot if I'm being careless.

Also, it has a relatively small clip size if you pretty much just use the primary fire exclusively. 5 shots and then I reload, and then needing two shells per shot? That's too long a wait for so few shots. Not really a good choice for me.

Pretty much the main reason I use this gun is for alt fire. It allows me to get two fatal shots into someone quicker than any other shotty. Ultimately, this bonus can be questionable and pretty much trivial unless you happen to encounter two or more people in close quarters at once.

On the upside, it is great for busting armoured guys in one shot to the body, but I prefer to just place one shot to the head and serve the same end, at one less shell (and in the case that one shot ain't enough, I can quickly just thwack 'em a good one to finish the deed )

It also is pretty good when you engage in melee with a vehicle, too.

I pretty much use this one against zombies when there is a big group and they are really close.

MRT6: (Yeah, this wasn't brought up, but I figured I should, since I feel like doing a complete review of the shotguns and their uses to me.) This thing... hmm... I like it, but it isn't used by me much. I pretty much use it exclusively for almost a melee weapon, as it's range can't be used very well (at least by me) to do much more than maybe get the attention of someone.

Fast reload is definitely a plus, but that plus is canceled out by next to nothing for range. So it's awesome for close quarters, but you can't even really try to use it for anything else, as far as my experience goes.

I use it as a last ditch weapon against zombies. If I'm completely surrounded by the buggers, I can simply clear myself a nice little path with the MRT6.

Ultimately, there are 4 shotguns in one game. One (noobish person) would think, "Gee, that's stupid. Whats one shotgun got that the others don't? It's just your typical little kill stick, only 4 of them. Lame."

See, that person is assuming they are all used for the same thing, which I feel some others here might feel too. The thing is, these shotguns all have their own uses. Granted, they all involve close range combat, but how you use them varies quite a bit. The more patient person might prefer the M763, taking their time to line up the shots. The more slightly more tactical run and gunner might prefer the MRS138 due to it's balance of range, spread, and damage.The jumpy, dodgy, type that just are in it to kill without taking the time to aim might like the M290; it's got a shorter range, but has a wide spread with plenty of pellets, helping to ensure they at least hurt the guy they're aiming at. Then you got the cruel, turn the corner you're dead type, who may like to lie in ambush, or sneak about, whatever. They just get in there and blast that person to smithereens at point blank just so they can see the blood hit their screen. (I have great respect for those people. )

You also have people that don't really fit into those categories and choose their shotgun for their own reasons.

Regardless, the shotguns seem really balanced to me, considering that I work best with what you say is the weakest of them, and I suck with what you say is too powerful to have on your server.

People's views of balance really do vary wildly, as you may be able to see. I really don't know what should be done about the balance, as I seem to be happy with them and my view of effectiveness is actually almost opposite of yours, and that alone is proof enough to me that balance is a matter of opinion, of wildly varying.

Hmm... looks like I made quite the speech... I'll make the SMG part shorter.

The XK2 and the Fifty-9. Essentially they are the same gun;

XK2 has just a tad lower damage, than the Fifty-9, and I mean this is really slight. You probably couldn't notice it at all unless you (like me) looked at the code. XK2 on the other hand, does in fact have a bigger clip (by 5 rounds, easily another burst or two), a faster fire rate (0.07 for XK2, 0.08 for Fifty-9; that's quite a difference), and apparently quite a bit better penetration. It also has silencer while the Fifty-9 has a melee attack and a foldable stock of questionable benefit. That doesn't really seem like too big of a difference to me, as melee isn't really terribly useful for a gun like the Fifty-9 unless you are low on ammo, as it isn't affected much by long gun, or if you just like melee.

In the end, they seem like they should be pretty much equal.

But on the contrary, I use the Fifty-9 much more than the XK2, and the XK2 used to be my favourite side arm.

Now, here's the question. Why? Why do I use the Fifty-9 now and never use my once favourite weapon?

Well, to be honest, I think it might be because the Fifty-9 just looks so kickass.

Lets try and skip over that fact though.

The Fifty-9 has a very small recoil pattern. The XK2 has a simple one, it just goes in straight lines, pretty predictable, but it just isn't a very tight grouping.

I think that alone is really the one reason why people prefer it over the XK2. Plus the need of silencers isn't really high in this game, but I blame not the code of the silencers, but the game. In the end, the numbers are very similar, so you'd think they'd be pretty much toe to toe. It's just the recoil paterns that throw the monkey wrench into the machine.

When you have two very similar guns, one would naturally go for the one that's easier to use, and that wicked paint-job kinda fortifies its spot as the favoured.

My suggestion is rather vague, but to just in some way make the recoil patterns and groupings of the guns more similar. Maybe you could employ usage of the stock in the XK2, I dunno. but just someway to make the guns a bit more similar. But, now that I think about it, that would pretty much water down the guns and make them too bland. So, I don't know. Maybe just let the XK2 have more usage of the stock or something.

I'm gonna switch back to using the XK2, I'll just try it out and see how easy it is to use.

As for the XRS-10, I only used the gun maybe five times altogether, and that's starting from when I first got the weapons. I can't give you any grounded opinion on the subject.

I forgot the about the MRT6

the problem with this is the spread, it's like the MRS138 but with a shorter range.

Yes, it is fast to use, but how effective can one be at ranges much further than melee?

Melee has infinite ammo, but you can easily kill someone in one or two hits to the head, and in close range that's not hard to do. I don't really think the MRT6 is really that bad.

Edit:

Oops, misread your post there Storm X.

Thank you somebody agrees with me

stop complaining its a waste of time you can balance realism seriously i do whine every now and then about the lightning gun but thats it if you don't like getting pwned by the am67 tough, if not beat it stop playing the mod and go somewhere else, simple as that

Just a quickie, but I just played an intense Deathmatch game in 1-on-1-Backspace. I beat a guy who normally destroys me using only the MRT6 and the M353 Machine gun (overpowered and will address in a later topic). Had I used any of the other shotguns instead of the MRT6, I would have lost for sure.

The MRT6 seems effective to about 5 meters, quite a bit longer htan melee range.

Granted, that may be true, but the only thing you really need to do to stop him from killing you is keep your distance. In close quarters maps this obviously isn't aways easy, but always still possible.

And it is really the only thing you need to do. Any distance past those 5 metres and he can't touch you.

Take that gun in an open map and you won't get the same results unless you really let him sneak up on you a bunch.

True, but the very wide spread, pistol-level chaos, fast firing rate, and extremely fast reload make it so much more effective than the other shotguns at very close ranges, which is about the only range shotguns are useful.

In Loadout, there's really no reason not to choose an MRT6 as a sidearm and choose powerful longer-range weapons as your primary and secondary.

Now, to address your comments on your huge speech:

I too have seen instances where almost all the pellets miss the target, its kinda funny to see actually.

Again, the reason for this is the lack pellets. Not really a lot you can do to change that, just gotta live with it or die trying.[/quote]Fast reload is definitely a plus, but that plus is canceled out by next to nothing for range. So it's awesome for close quarters, but you can't even really try to use it for anything else, as far as my experience goes.[/quote]Zombies[/quote]

You really can't decide the effectiveness of a weapon by how well you can kill mindless zombies with it. With mass zombie invasions, ammo conservation is very important. Not so much with Deathmatch.

Alright, I just did some investigation, I guess there isn't half as many pellets comparing the 10 gauge to the 12 gauge, but there are still just a few less. It's 10 to 12, with the damage for each 10 gauge pellet being 22 to 38, while the 12 gauge has 15 to 38. The 12 guage I think can have more maximum damage, but the 10 gauge has a much higher minimum damage.

Of course swinging away quickly is the problem, I thought I made that clear already.

But yeah, if you adjust your aim a bit you can still land hits pretty consistently. It works.

And on the contrary, I do in fact think its very funny when you got an outline of the enemy behind him from the pellets missing him. I play the game for the fun of it. I don't play it for the competition. I wouldn't want to, as thats the whole point of a game: to have fun.

If the shot distribution was better, I'd love that, the MRS would definitely be better than it is.

I know shotguns are for close ranges, but you can still use the M763 for longer ranges. The MRT6 can't. It simply isn't just less effective, it has no chance of hitting someone.

You got it right on for what I was saying for the SMGs.

And yes, in this case the melee is more useful than a silencer, and that's just due to the nature of this game. But the melee alone shouldn't be enough to make the gun more favoured, I'm pretty sure its the spread.

I wasn't judging the effectiveness of the weapons by saying how I killed zombies with it, I was just giving an example of how it's probably best used when taking on the natural enemy of shotguns.

Sorry for not reading the whole of the recent discussion, - I'm just too tired after finishing my second higher education yesterday, - but one thing I can say for sure is that all the shotguns are pretty well balanced. M763 has good range and huge clip, the pellet spread is very tight and you can kill anyone with it even at mid-high distance. M290 just lacks range because of its loose spread, so it's only a beast gun at close range. Instead of 10 single shots you get only 4 double by the way. I see no disbalance here, if you manage to survive trying to get close enough to your target, then it's fair you blast them off. MRS138 gives me a really eerie feeling of both having insufficient range and pellet spread ('too average' if I might put it so) but judging by my kill stats MRS138 is just as good as the rest of shotguns. Just a bit too wacky to get used to. In fact, MRS138 is the most universal of all the shotguns, suitable for any combat situation.

I don't know whether silencers should reduce damage, but it really should be made so that nobody can hear the sound of a silenced gun at distances greater than 9-10'. When you hear the faint sound of a silenced gun from far away, you react to it just the same way you would react to the loud banging. But if you hear nothing but the sound of bullets hitting your ass, you get disoriented and your enemy gets a few seconds of advantage. Then silencers would make sense.

Just stand stock still, point at a wall, and blast away at the wall with the shotguns. Watch the distributions of the pellets. The M290 might have a wider spread, but it has no bearing on range due to the immense number of pellets it fires.

For the lazy, download this demo. Put it in your UT2004/Demos folder and watch it from the Community Tab. The first half shows the M290 and the M763, while the latter half puts the MRS138 in the mix. (MRS138 might be bugged. I tried replaying and the MRS didn't show.)


And the random spread is just ridiculous man. Playing for fun is fine and all, but I play to win. I wouldn't be complaining about balance if I wasn't so competitive.

Now you see, thats [competitiveness] the problem.

That is the basis for UT2004. Competitive online gameplay.

That's beside the point. The point is, the M290 doesn't have a range problem compared to other shotguns.

And the randomness of the spread for all the guns are not grounded in reality, and don't make for good gameplay either. Chaos already screws up your aim, which is fine enough, but none of the other guns can completely miss even when pointed perfectly at the target.

Demo link again

I'd also like to add that the SMG's really shouldn't be starting weapons. They're a little too powerful for that.

Also, what does the 12-38 damage values mean? 12 damage for limbs and 38 for head, or is it a range for the base torso damage value?

If the latter, 38 damage for a small pellet is rather unbelievable considering the low damage the larger RS8 or M50 bullets do.

If the spread for the shotguns are fixed to be less crazy and random, damage for individual pellets might have to go down too.

Just thought that if RS implement a weapon buying system (is it just rumours?) with custom prices set by the admins, all the balance issues will be gone.

Won't do crap in non-loadout games.

I'm already working on a detailed idea of a buying system to replace both loadout and non-loadout game types. The idea is loosely based on TO:C weapon system, still retaining much of original Loadout feel and taking into consideration power of weapons, weapon classes, weight and price. However as long as BW weapons do not differ in power that much as TO:C ones do, the price ranges will accordingly be not too extravagant, save for heavy weapons.

The only major kind of change that needs to be introduced here is tuning down the accuracy of SMGs and increasing the accuracy / lowering recoil of assault rifles to make them into two distinct weapon classes: SMGs for short-range, assault rifles for long range. SMGs have been too devastating since 2.0 was out, making an uhealthy kind of competition to the assault rifles, mainly due to the fact that SMGs sometimes prove even more accurate than the assault guns. This could do in a mod that tends to balance out all the weapons to make them equally effective, but with a buying system there should be a bit of difference between the two classes. Of course, I'm not going to change the firepower of guns not too upset anybody

Players gain money by killing enemies and spend them between spawns to buy/sell weapons or acquire extra ammunition (but ammo pickups are still available all over the place). When you're killed, you lose your selected weapon and must buy another one. Etc. Etc. Details coming later this week. Six weapon slots: melee, sidearm, SMG/Shotgun Shorties, Assault Rifle/Shotgun, Heavy Weapon, Grenades/Explosives/Mines. Much like Tactical Ops: Crossfire mod, but of course considering all the specifics of BW concerning weapon power and overall balance. No massive changes here.

I hope a buying system plus a compromise variant of some of the 'overpowered' weapons (LG, A67) as promised by RS (weaker than 2.0 but not as weak as you and me would suggest) would put everything into place. LG, A67, G5 and the rest can stay slightly overpowered which will be reflected by their price, however I see no place for really overpowered weapons even with a buying system.

Why not, seems like it would if implemented. Make 'spammy' or 'cheap' weapons higher costing and weaker weapons less costing (etc) in the different sets. Seems reasonable to me.

Well, I came to a decision on money distribution in my future system:

1. Every kill gets you a small fixed amount of money + a bonus based on your victim's frag count. The more people your victim has killed, the more money you get for killing him. This encourages chasing stronger opponents.

2. When you are killed, you lose a fixed percent of your money (let's say 10%) and a random weapon save for melee ones. So you have a 20% chance of losing your pistol, 20% chance of losing your brand new LG, etc. In other words, if you are killed 10 times in a row, you are left with no cash and a simple pistol. Considering that pistols aren't that weak in BW, you can always raise money.

3. Weapons do not fall out of killed enemies but rather stay in their hands. You can't pick others' weapons.

4. Ammo pickups give you a limited supply of random ammo for one of your weapons.

Buying and selling:

1. Every player has a period of 10-15 seconds between spawns to buy and sell weapons. There are six rows of weapon icons on the screen corresponding to the six classes of weapons mentioned in my previous post. You buy a weapon by highlighting it and sell it buy unchecking it. If another weapon of the same class is chosen the previously selected one is automatically sold. See Tactical Operations: Crossfire to get familiar with this type of buying screen - the quickest and easiest to operate ever known.

2. A player can also buy an extra supply of ammo to spawn with. The cost of a full supply of ammo equals to the price of the corresponding weapon. However ammo pickups are free and buying extra ammo wastes your money quickly.

3. Every time you are killed, you only lose a random weapon and 10% of your cash. The rest of your inventory stays with you.

"Non-loadout games" as in basic deathmatch with weapon pickups lying on the ground. What, make players have to spend money to pick up a gun lying on the ground?

That'd be an interesting idea for a super hard version of BW. You can't get a weapon if you a. have too many weapons or b. don't have skill (money) to get it. Just running it over is enough to get it though if you have the open slots and the 'skill' for it. You lose your money for picking it up however so you don't get to pick all super weapons up, and must kill for more skill/money points. Max of weapons to be set by admin. By throwing a weapon, you get back your skill/oney from getting that gun in the first place.

That sound interesting?

To hell with the basic deathmatch and all the weapon pickups on the ground! A mod with 50+ types of weapons (and even more to come) wasn't made for that anyway, 99% people use loadout. I see no justification for non-loadout game types to stay after a buying system is implemented.