RuneStorm :: View topic - Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)

When mounted on pistols and submachine guns with subsonic ammunition, a good suppressor can reduce the sound to a loud pneumatic clacking noise, roughly comparable to a staple gun. Often the sound of the gun's bolt cycling is louder than the actual report. Only on very small-caliber weapons, such as .22 LR caliber ones, can the weapon's report truly be silenced. On rifles, the noise reduction is great but the sound is generally still loud enough to be heard for hundreds of meters. The noise reduction is still often great enough to allow safe shooting without hearing protection. Also significant is the changing of the sound to something that is not identifiable as a gunshot, reducing or eliminating attention drawn to the shooter (hence the Finnish expression: "A silencer does not make a rifleman silent, but it does make him invisible").

...

Suppressors have other benefits besides reducing noise. A suppressor changes the sound report of a shot fired, spreading the sound and making the shooter harder to pinpoint. Most suppressors are effective recoil reducers.

Author:	Kaboodles [ Sat May 26, 2007 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
I've put this thing off long enough, and hopefully I've learned enough from the previous iteration to make this discussion productive and successful ^^ Instead of putting all of my opinions out on one big mega-post, I'm going to break up the discussion into bite-sized, easy to digest pieces. That way, minor and more agreeable changes won't be buried by heated arguments on the LG or whatever. Let us begin! Table of Contents: I. Silencers. What's the deal? II. Your Trusty Sidearm III. Shotguns and SMGs

Author:	Kaboodles [ Sat May 26, 2007 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
I. Silencers. What's the deal? As they are, silencers in this game need work. For one thing, all silencers in the game reduce the weapon's damage, which really doesn't make any sense. Most silencers don't make any contact with a bullet, and really would not affect its velocity to the extent that they do in this mod. (24 hp to 17 in the case of the XRS-10, if memory serves) The only reason a silencer would have to slow bullet velocity is for high-velocity supersonic rounds (to remove the bullet's sonic boom), which only really applies to to the SRS-900 rifle. Even then, the rubber bits that slow the bullet down degrade after only a few shots. I can accept that maybe in this crazy future world with rail guns someone develops something that wouldn't be degraded by bullets, but even then, they're only necessary for the Battle rifle. In addition, silencers appear to also increase recoil, which makes even less sense than reducing damage. (which is easiest to spot with the Battle Rifle. Dunno about the other guns though) With a silencer slowing the velocity of the gas escaping the barrel (not the bullet) and the added weight on the tip of the barrel, should actually significantly reduce recoil. Now with these changes, silenced weapons would become rather overpowered. To counter this reduced recoil, the added weight would also decrease weapon stability, adding more chaos to the weapon and making it take a tad longer to steady your aim. Also, silencers really don't completely silence weapons, only suppress the noise and diffuse it, making it harder to determine a shooter's location by ear. You'd still be able to hear the gunshot, and from a good distance too, but you won't be able to pinpoint its direction with your hearing. Also, I don't see how they put out tracers either, but I don't particularly care about that one feature so meh. Info taken from wonderful Wikipedia. Yay Wikipedia! In summation: -Silencers/Suppressors shouldn't affect damage for all guns except maybe the SRS-900. -Silencers should reduce recoil, not increase it. -They should increase chaos for weapons when used. -They can't completely silence weapons, only diffuse the sound and make it harder to pinpoint the shooter by ear. This is probably harder to do so you can ignore this if you like. -How does it put out tracer rounds? What do you think?

Author:	uzi4u [ Sat May 26, 2007 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
Quote: - -How does it put out tracer rounds? Isn't there some work going on with LED tracer rounds now? those may wind up being controllable. Edit: also, about the sound diffuser stuff- supressors don't diffuse the sound- they reduce the sound of the report, that is the sound of the propellant burining- the sound would also wind up being different than the current "pew Pew", more like a "crack Crack".

Author:	Bulska [ Sun May 27, 2007 5:39 am ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
What is the point of a silencer on the Uzi and Pistol with the blue laser? If you keep both on, the silencer would be useless, as you could follow the blue line to where the enemy is hidden.

Author:	DK [ Sun May 27, 2007 6:07 am ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
PROTIP: DON'T use BOTH of them AT THE SAME TIME.

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Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs) https://www.runestorm.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=36701	Page 1 of 6

Author:	Captain Xavious [ Sun May 27, 2007 9:48 am ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
In the current game, there is not much use for a silencer, which I'm sure you all can agree. But, when they get around to their bigger projects, it will not be as fast of a game, and there will definitely be points where stealth is going to help out a lot (at least this is what I'm lead to believe). Maybe the silencers need tweaking, maybe not. But in UT2004 at this state, there really isn't a lot you can do in my opinion. The tracers are probably put on to add a bit more use for the silencers. As for a logical explanation, maybe the silencers put something on the bullets as they fly out? At the state of the game right now, I really don't think there is much use for silenced weapons, except for maybe the SRS, since its quite a bit longer ranged. With side arms, those are generally used in closer quarters, and in reality, you wouldn't use the silencer to keep the victim from hearing it, it's to prevent nearby bystanders from hearing it. And that doesn't really help too much in a frantic game like that of UT04. On the other hand, silencer for a long ranged gun does have its uses, as you can be far enough to remain hidden visually, and with the silencers, remain hidden from ears too. I imagine the tracers are there to keep you from being too hard to find.

Author:	Carsomyr [ Sun May 27, 2007 10:02 am ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
sniff . . . sniff . . . I smell realism complaints. Right now, the silencers are plenty effective for me. Any gun that can be silenced, I always use silenced. And I daresay I do pretty darn well online and offline. If they work, they work, and that's good enough for me. Maybe there's room for improvement, but I'm content to not fix things that aren't broken.

Author:	Captain Xavious [ Sun May 27, 2007 10:31 am ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
Well, I guess there is use for them, but still, for this kind of game, they work effectively, as Carsomyr pointed out. I say nay on changing them at this point too.

Author:	Bjossi [ Sun May 27, 2007 11:15 am ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
24 - 17 damage, increased recoil; it's just gameplay balancing to make the silencers have disadvantage to balance out the usefulness of silenced firing sound in stealth situations.

Author:	Kaboodles [ Sun May 27, 2007 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
I use silencers because a silenced pistol is twice as badass as an unsilenced one. But the drop in performance really isn't worth the extra time it takes to put one on and the dubious "advantage" of having silenced weapons in a fast-paced game like UT2004 (especially with the sprint mutator). It's another fairly useless feature, like laser sights. Also, it's just irritating when you have all these awesome features (like not having to cock the weapon every time you pull it out) that make the game more realistic, and then this random (though badass) feature that's completely contrary to reality. Also, excerpts from the article for those who can't be arsed to read it through Wikipedia wrote: When mounted on pistols and submachine guns with subsonic ammunition, a good suppressor can reduce the sound to a loud pneumatic clacking noise, roughly comparable to a staple gun. Often the sound of the gun's bolt cycling is louder than the actual report. Only on very small-caliber weapons, such as .22 LR caliber ones, can the weapon's report truly be silenced. On rifles, the noise reduction is great but the sound is generally still loud enough to be heard for hundreds of meters. The noise reduction is still often great enough to allow safe shooting without hearing protection. Also significant is the changing of the sound to something that is not identifiable as a gunshot, reducing or eliminating attention drawn to the shooter (hence the Finnish expression: "A silencer does not make a rifleman silent, but it does make him invisible"). ... Suppressors have other benefits besides reducing noise. A suppressor changes the sound report of a shot fired, spreading the sound and making the shooter harder to pinpoint. Most suppressors are effective recoil reducers.

Author:	Bjossi [ Sun May 27, 2007 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
Kaboodles wrote: and then this random (though badass) feature that's completely contrary to reality. We are talking about a computer game, not reality.

Author:	Kaboodles [ Sun May 27, 2007 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
Bjossi wrote: Kaboodles wrote: and then this random (though badass) feature that's completely contrary to reality. We are talking about a computer game, not reality. It's just silly that this mod would have location-based damage, movement-based accuracy penalties, recoil, bullet penetration, and a host of realistic features, and then get something so basic completely wrong.

Author:	Bjossi [ Sun May 27, 2007 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
Well, none of those features are realistic, though have a scent of realism. I just think even in a fast paced game like this, it gives an advantage to use a silencer. And everyone would use it if there weren't noticable disadvantages like damage or accuracy penalties. So in conclusion I vote to not change these penalties. I think they are fine the way they are.

Author:	Kaboodles [ Sun May 27, 2007 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
But as they are now, the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages. I'm not voting to make silencers uber-powerful. I want them to be balanced, so their use is a matter of preference and situation. I prefer it if the penalties and advantages were balanced and made a little more sense. If we were to have silencers reduce the recoil instead of increase it, but increase the weapon's chaos accordingly, and not have it decrease damage (at least, not as much as it currently does), I'd say it would be perfectly balanced.

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Author:	Yokelassence [ Sun May 27, 2007 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
I never quite understood why silencers reduced damage output. The advantages they offer is not worth the reduced firepower. Before I realised this I used the silencers regulary since they look very cool and the added steath does come in handy, even in UT2004. Granted less gunfire noise doesnt offer a huge advantage but in some situations it can give you the benifit of the doubt. An example is small scale deathmatch (4-3 players in a small map) where everyone is listening for eachother. But when I realised I have to put 3 or more extra bullets into the enemy when using the silencer...whats the point? When the enemy has seen me the last thing I need is reduced damage. I have not used this cool feature since. Weapon balance is summarised as this: "if you have no reason to use a feature, or every reason to use just one feature. Then you have a problem" So far I like Kaboodles suggested changes. Not for the sake of realism, just for the sake of having a feature I want to use. Specifically, dont let it affect damage. If that gives silencers too much advantage then emphasise more on its impact on chaos or accuracy. On the other hand, since the silencers usefulness is not intended for UT2004 gameplay but may be intended for another mod it may be wise to leave them for that mod. I wont cry if the silencers remain unchanged, I dont use them anyway.

Author:	Bjossi [ Sun May 27, 2007 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
The damage reduction could be lowered, like instead of 24 - 17, make it 24 down to 19 or 20. Small change in number but does add up as you do more damage.

Author:	ShadowBlade [ Mon May 28, 2007 3:22 am ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
firstly.. they dont increase recoil.. and in order to make the bullet make less noise, bullets need to be slowed down, hence the decreased damage.. its simple, its balanced, its effective.... as for removing tracers.. its a game.. like how reloading doesnt remove all the ammo from your half-empty clip

Author:	DK [ Mon May 28, 2007 5:41 am ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
Aaah~ My Action Quake days... when removing a half-empty clip meant certain death...

Author:	Captain Xavious [ Mon May 28, 2007 8:29 am ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
What SB said. Plus, the reduced damage doesn't affect my kills much. If you're using a silencer, its probably towards your best interest to make kill shots. Aim for that little doodad above their neck. I can guarantee its not going to take many more bullets to bring the target down. As for lasers being useless, that's not true at all. Try playing without the crosshairs. You'll find that placing shots exactly where you want is not as easy unless you use iron sites, but that can have some obvious drawbacks in an intense firefight. Laser sights make a good halfway point. And after I read the Wiki article, I retract my claim about using silencers to keep bystanders from hearing the shot. Instead they just hear it without knowing the source. Regardless, it doesn't have much use in UT2004 except in limited amounts. Though I can partially agree with balance issues as far as not many people using it compared to alternatives. But the problem isn't with how the silencers are implemented. The problem is with what they are implemented in. I've said this before and my opinion isn't changing. People don't use things like stealth in a fast paced game that has no concern for stealth. Granted, you still can use stealth combat, it depends a lot on the map, but typically, it isn't very practical and requires a considerable amount of skill to hide and remain hidden indefinitely. I'm fairly certain that if there was more emphasis on stealth, the silencers, without changing them, would be incredibly useful. Normally the exchange of damage for stealth would be incredibly fair. I don't see how it wouldn't, considering you should be going for kill shots that, well, kill near instantly, when you are sneaking about. Reduced damage doesn't play much of a role in that instance. But, in the current situation, the bonus of stealth just doesn't balance with lower damage.

Author:	OCAdam [ Mon May 28, 2007 9:20 am ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
I'm designing a total stealth edition of SavoIsland right now, and it seems that when I play against a human (my bro), not only does using a silencer help, it makes it near impossible to find me (since he is the defender, he's unable to use much stealth) while I use any silenced weapon. Now, why can't we have a silencer on the sniper rifle? That would be the best and make me actually use it for a game! I only use it now for the idea of WWII battles...

Author:	Baklajan [ Mon May 28, 2007 9:54 am ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
Adjustable damage, recoil, accuracy and bonuses/penalties for every weapon and all of its 'attachables' like silencers and all will effectively prevent any further balance complaints. Otherwise we'll get a thousand more threads like this.

Author:	Bjossi [ Mon May 28, 2007 10:08 am ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
I agree with Baklajan, this stuff should be configurable. Weapon Stuff can control damage and fire rate and momentum, etc. But the new additions to the game like inaccuracy, aren't supported there. I personally would stick with the defaults, but maybe other people want some weapons to be less or more effective.

Author:	Captain Xavious [ Mon May 28, 2007 10:32 am ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
The thing about making everything configurable is that it just would be so confusing and really hard to integrate into a game. Can you imagine how you'd have to make the menus? It'd make the game more appealing to anyone who wants to take the time to configure it to their own preferences, but that leaves you with wildly varying games. Imagine going to to a server, getting all comfy with the settings, then trying out a new server with BW only to find out the game is entirely different. Your favorite G5 became just a toy that you can fly around, useful only as a mobile camera, no damage possibilities at all. It could be a good thing, but it could also leave you eith something not BW at all.

Author:	Baklajan [ Mon May 28, 2007 10:49 am ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
1. So far BW allows to change the accuracy factor and the recoil factor so wildly that the issue you are bringing up is already there 2. Nobody will play on stupid servers like that. So nobody will launch a server like that. "Entirely different" won't do, just some minor changes, if any, maybe discussed beforehand with the players on that server's forum. 3. You could use the ingame weapon wiki to put some sliders in there to configure each gun. I'm begininning to think that BW could become a separate mod with its own startup menu instead of being a mutator. 4. There should be the holy Switch to Default Values button in every weapon's config that will help you out when you get too confused. 5. Instead of hours of speculating on possible balance changes, you could check your and other people's guesses in a few moments. It'd save a lot of time, and when everybody's got on terms with everybody else, those settings are applied to the server. BW will be the only game that allows the players to 'patch' it to their heart's content.

Author:	Bjossi [ Mon May 28, 2007 11:31 am ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
I think you are making it more complex than it actually is. This would just be a new tab in the config menu, if you like the defaults then don't click the tab to enter the menu. Simple really. And if you find a server that uses silly weapon changes then leave and find a better server. Maybe it would be a cool feature if you could upload the conents of the server ini file into your console so you can read what changes it has made.

Author:	Yokelassence [ Mon May 28, 2007 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
After reading ShadowBlades post, perhaps it is better to leave the silencers as they are. As this mod develops it continues to further change the gameplay to something far more reminescent of Project IGI where sneakiness and desicions skills compliment victory far more than brute force. In that situation, yes the silencers would be useful and balanced. But if that time does not come, for now a small damage increase cant go wrong. P.S: making every weapon configurable so people can address their own balance issues may arouse as many problems as it solves. People need to be told what is balanced and what is not, since their own opinions on balance will take place if they can do it themselves and dont think every server is going to have an opinion of balance you can agree with. If it can be abused, it will. Runestorm made the weapons, Runestorm knows the weapons. They should have the final say on balance and these forums are the best place for that. Yes there will be many more threads like these about the current balance but at least we have the choice to agree or disagree with them. You wont have that choice if every server can impliment its own balance.

Author:	Captain Xavious [ Mon May 28, 2007 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
Aye. Couldn't have said it better myself, Yokelassence.

Author:	Baklajan [ Tue May 29, 2007 2:40 am ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
You mean I'll never be able to fix all the issues regarding shitty pistol balance and all those overpowered guns like G5 just because a few people keep shouting 'Nay!' here at the forums? RS have made the guns, but I doubt they're experts in balance. If I were asked to, I'd produce a ten-page report with precise mathematical calculations proving that A67 is overpowered.

Author:	Captain Xavious [ Tue May 29, 2007 3:17 am ]
Post subject:	Weapon Balance and Improvement Thread 2 (Current Topic: Shotties and SMGs)
If you feel that way just don't use the AM67. It's really quite simple. But this thread is about silencers. But what you're proposing just isn't worth the effort. The exact same thing can be done if you just take a bit of time learning about coding, and then you can simply copy the gun code and change the default properties yourself. Much simpler. If you want I can show you personally how to do this. And balance is not something math alone can prove.