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My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
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Author:  Baklajan [ Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
Since the already existing thread also deals with melee and has nothing to do with the stocks, I decided to start a new one. Having played BW 2.1 for about 20 hours so far, I found the lack of auto-walk while aiming a most annoying feature. Also I didn't see anything logical in how the collapsible stocks affect the gameplay - the bonus and penalty they give is something nonsensical since a player spends most of his time moving, so a stationary accuracy bonus looks ridiculous.

Well, first of all my proposition for the aim / walk issue. Why not make the aiming stance part of the walking mode? I can hardly imagine someone engaging the walk mode for a purpose other than to aim. You'd rather crouch if you wanted to keep yourself from falling from a narrow bridge! So in other words, once you press Aim you actually activate Walk, and the aiming stance is just a part of it. Maybe that could eliminate bugs that would emerge otherwise, if the walking mode were a separate feature that had to be forced automatically once you pressed aim.

Secondly come my propositions on how the aiming and collapsible stock should work. Weapons should be given a bit more variety in player speed while carrying a specific weapon. I guess people wielding anything without a stock should move at least 25% faster than those with guns that have stocks due to the fact that moving with your gun pressed against your chest would naturally make you slower. So unfolding a collapsible stock should both make the player move slower and grant a lower recoil/stability. Than the collapsibles would make a lot of sense, allowing certain guns to "switch between classes" in a way.

Once I tried running with an actual AK-74U with its stock pressed against the lower part of my chest (I wasn't aiming through the iron sights of course!) and it was much harder to run than if I held it just in front of me. Unfortunatly I'm not much of a soldier and that was quite a while ago during the periodical short-term military training that all the men of our country have to attend once in a few years, so the credibility of my experience is open to debate :(

Thirdly, my proposition on how aiming should work. Well, I think it should work very similar to the way it works in BW 2.1: a) the gun sway is minimized to a negligible value at the price of a significantly lower player speed b) in addition, the guns can no longer jump and bob like crazy if you try firing really long bursts, but that DOESN'T mean that the recoil is reduced - it works the usual way but just doesn't allow the gun to do tricks like an SMG does if you hold the trigger for too long, that is drawing weird zigzags with its barrel.

Packing it in a nutshell:

Engaging the aiming mode (a.k.a walk mode) = player speed reduced to 60%, gun sway is minimized to a value that can be safely ignored

Unfolding a collapsible stock = player speed is reduced as if he was carrying a heavier weapon, and the weapon stability/recoil is increased likewise

P.S. Most guns that have a stock look exactly as if the stock was collapsible, why not make all of them actually collapsible? Especially the XK-2 - it in fact has a collapsible stock!
Author:  Sgt. Kelly [ Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
I agree with most of these points.

The iron sights movement reduction could be similar to the heavy weapon speed reduction system. That system seemed to work well.

Though the stocks actually have a use in online play. Most players stand still at long ranges, so the stocks are useful for pinpoint accuracy. When the enemy comes close and the action becomes more like IA, the stocks collapse and dodging begins.
Author:  Baklajan [ Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
Well, at long ranges recoil still prevents bursts from hitting people even with the stock unfolded, and single shots from Fifty-9 and the new assault weapon are pretty accurate without the stocks provided that you're in the aiming mode and standing still.

If we say that a guy with a 'stocked' medium weapon like an assault rifle or a shotgun has 100% speed, then pistols and SMGs should give the player a 125% speed and heavy weapons a 75% speed. The recoil should vary accordingly, all 'stocked' weapons being notably more stable than the stockless ones. SAR-12 and Fifty-9 with their stocks folded act as SMGs giving 125% speed and low stability, with their stocks unfolded they turn into assault rifles, Fifty-9 being above the rest of SMGs in terms of stability but below all the other assault rifles.

Here's a guess on the weapon stability/recoil rating:

XRS10
SAR-12
Fifty-9
XK2
Fifty-9 with unfolded stock
SAR-12 with unfolded stock
M50
SRS-900
A73
R9

The yellow ones have significantly less recoil than the green ones, though also stand for a notably lower player speed. SAR-12 is less stable than Fifty-9 with stock folded due to a bigger calibre, however its bigger mass allows it to profit from the unfolded stock more than Fifty-9, winning it a higher position in the assault rifle rating.

The R-9 and D-49 really rock in the aiming mode now, while walking it's possible to plant headshots all over the place, also the A67 is great for ambushes since it's extremely deadly if fired while aiming. Of course it's useless for cramped situations if used that way, but if you want to kill someone from around the corner aiming would be the best choice.

/EDIT/ Oh, and double tapping the forward key should lower the weapon and let the player run at a spint speed exceeding both the speed of stocked and stockless weapons, regardless of the currently selected weapon type. Of course you can't shoot while sprinting and the weapon keeps lowered until you stop.

I say, it would be natural for two guys one armed with a M50 and another with a XRS10 to have different speeds while fighting each other due to the different manner of holding the weapon and aiming, but I doubt that the one who's got the M50 would be holding it in the same way with stock pressed against his chest while running a mile in the desert with no-one around, and the guy with the Fifty-9 isn't going to hold the gun his hands stretched forward as well, so both should run with their guns lowered at an equal speed.

So the rule could be: equal speeds for sprinting, different speeds for fighting, and you can't fire while sprinting. And the fighting speed depends on the weapon construction, mass and the presence of a stock.
Author:  KamunouHyena [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:12 am ]
Post subject:  My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
I must admit I like the idea of not being able to fire while sprinting.
Author:  DK [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:07 am ]
Post subject:  My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
Eh, firing while sprinting is f'n useless anyway, unless you want to scare players and waste bullets at the same time.
Author:  Kaboodles [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:22 am ]
Post subject:  My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
I disagree on the slowed movement speeds for stock weapons. If you're shooting at someone while running, you'd probably be holding the gun at your hip. I remember MOH:AA having this feature where the gun would lower when you were running (though you could still shoot) and go back up to shoulder height when you stopped.

The main disadvantage of stocked weapons should be increased chaos while running, and a complete inability to fire while sprinting. Unstocked weapons would not have this disability, although their accuracy would still be significantly lower. The big exception would be the Minigun, of course. No stock, but you're not going to be shooting that thing at full sprint.

The main disadvantage of not having a stock would be higher recoil overall relative to stocked weapons. Crouching or using the iron sights should not have as much of an effect on recoil as weapons with stocks.


We could change up the aiming system to include a pervasive weapon shakiness even when standing still and sighted, as a result of breathing and your natural arm movements. That would give stocked weapons another improvement in that they'd have less shakiness in sighted modes and crouched than those without.

And sprint speeds won't be equal simply because some weapons are heavier than others. You're not going to run very quickly with 10 gallons of flamethrower fuel on your back.
Author:  Captain Xavious [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
I need to read through this more thoroughly yet, but a thought crossed my mind when reading Kaboodles' mention of your gun lowering to your side when sprinting in some game.

Why not simply add some code to adjust the offset of the gun whilst running so that it shifts downwards and to the right a bit to make it look like it was being held to your side?

Added recoil for running is already applied based off your velocity, and several guns pitch upwards while sprinting. Couldn't something be done like that, only it adjusts the position of the gun rather than the rotation, for when you are sprinting?

While not truly making the gun even more inaccurate, it changes where the gun is firing from, so the cross hairs would be higher than where the bullets would generally be going, and it'd be harder to line up your shots based off the direction the gun is pointing, simply because it'd be offset and further away from the centre of the screen.

I see only one problem with this method of firing from the hip, and that is that you'd have to adjust the view of the gun so that your shoulders wouldn't show, because unless you add new animations (which won't likely happen soon), sliding the whole model of the gun + arms downward could look awkward. Imagine your arms sprouting out of your ribs if my explanation is confusing.
Author:  Kaboodles [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
Well it doesn't have to be necessarily at the hip. The stock simply wouldn't be at the shoulder. Like under the arm or something.

And the thing with changing the thing about shooting a gun from a different location is that a shooter could probably compensate by orienting the gun towards his target. Won't be incredibly accurate but should be in the general vicinity of center.

When you compare some of the weapons, you can see that you hold some of them lower than others. Like the RS8 is physically lower than the AM67.
Author:  Captain Xavious [ Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
Yeah, I realize it wouldn't necessarily be from the hip, but firing from somewhere-under-your-shoulder-and-above-your-hip just doesn't sound the same. :P

Compensation could be made to regain your accuracy, but I think this would just be nice simply as a bit of eye candy, and it would add an extra challenge to firing on the run.

Though I wonder, wouldn't the gun be a bit more stable, at least when you aren't firing, if you hold it to your side and not pressed against your body if running? :?
Author:  Kaboodles [ Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
Realistically, it wouldn't be stable at all regardless of what position you were holding it in. :P
Author:  Baklajan [ Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
I posted a story told me by one of my relatives (who served in military for quite a while) here a while ago, concerning the stock in SMG-type weapons. If the stock is short enough and is pressed against the forearm at the fold of the elbow, it would be the only working way to fire that type of weapon while moving fast (if you want some decent accuracy, say to hit somebody with a burst from 20-30 meters). However larger guns with stocks like assault rifle approximately the size of a kalashnikov won't let them to be held that way due to the length, so actually there's no other method of firing them while moving than from the hip, but that would be extremely inaccurate in real life...

I'd prefer to see the visual positions of weapons in 1st person view to be slightly altered - the stock-bearing ones should be shifted a bit to the centre of the screen and placed slightly above the usual position of the rest, while stockless ones should be rendered just the way they currently are. Guns with collapsible stocks would look gorgeous if they could swap between these two postitions depending on the stock mode.

Honestly, I believe that running with stock pressed against the body or without doing so would yield same amounts of barrel bobbing, since once you press it to the body the weapon recieves considerable impulses from the swaying torso and if you just hold it in the air, your hands shake too much.

So let's leave the bobbing factor to the aimed/unaimed mode (a.k.a. walk/run mode in my interpretation), I still think that stock should only affect the amount of recoil - it would decrease indeed if you were pressing the gun against your body. But movement should get a bit hindered then, or better say wielding a stockless weapon would be faster and more suitable for running.

My proposition stays the same: 125% of running speed for stockless weapons, 100% for stock-bearing ones and 75% for heavy ones, 50% speed for aimed mode - though while aimed, the recoil factor is still affected by the stock, so aimed fire is preferred with stock unfolded for guns with collapsible stocks. Yes, I mean the speed factor of a weapon doesn't affect the player speed in aimed mode - it's rather set to 50% of standard running speed for all guns and you get almost no barrel bobbing, and the recoil stays just the same way with unaimed fire - affected by the same set of factors. So, aimed fire will be more preferable for larger guns and unaimed for smaller ones since you get extra 25% player speed when switching from aimed to unaimed with smaller guns as compared to the larger ones (50% -> 125% vs. 50% -> 100%) But you could also use the aimed mode with stock unfolded for 50% and maximum accuracy and 125% speed with stock folded for mixed-type weapons like Fifty-9 and SAR-12 (And XK-2 in the future hopefully, since its stock must be made operable - looks like a typical collapsible).
Author:  Kaboodles [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
Baklajan wrote:
I posted a story told me by one of my relatives (who served in military for quite a while) here a while ago, concerning the stock in SMG-type weapons. If the stock is short enough and is pressed against the forearm at the fold of the elbow, it would be the only working way to fire that type of weapon while moving fast (if you want some decent accuracy, say to hit somebody with a burst from 20-30 meters). However larger guns with stocks like assault rifle approximately the size of a kalashnikov won't let them to be held that way due to the length, so actually there's no other method of firing them while moving than from the hip, but that would be extremely inaccurate in real life...


Interesting. I'll keep this in mind while doing tweaks.



Baklajan wrote:
My proposition stays the same: 125% of running speed for stockless weapons, 100% for stock-bearing ones and 75% for heavy ones, 50% speed for aimed mode - though while aimed, the recoil factor is still affected by the stock, so aimed fire is preferred with stock unfolded for guns with collapsible stocks. Yes, I mean the speed factor of a weapon doesn't affect the player speed in aimed mode - it's rather set to 50% of standard running speed for all guns and you get almost no barrel bobbing, and the recoil stays just the same way with unaimed fire - affected by the same set of factors. So, aimed fire will be more preferable for larger guns and unaimed for smaller ones since you get extra 25% player speed when switching from aimed to unaimed with smaller guns as compared to the larger ones (50% -> 125% vs. 50% -> 100%) But you could also use the aimed mode with stock unfolded for 50% and maximum accuracy and 125% speed with stock folded for mixed-type weapons like Fifty-9 and SAR-12 (And XK-2 in the future hopefully, since its stock must be made operable - looks like a typical collapsible).


There is no reason that removing a weapon's stock would allow you to run 25% faster. A better solution would be to disable firing while sprinting for all stocked weapons. Unstocked weapons would still be able to fire, though with very high weapon chaos.
Author:  Baklajan [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
There IS a reason to it. Try getting a real-sized toy assault rifle and run with it, its stock pressed to your shoulder and you'll see. You can't run fast because of that, 'cause that position restricts the mobility of the torso to a certain degree, and that would be true for anything humanlike and bipedal - be it a human, skaarj, skrith, cyborg or anything else that has two legs, two hands and a torso. You can't really fast holding a gun that way, let alone firing it in any decent manner (let alone aiming). However heavier rifles like M50 and SRS90 absolutely require a stock, while some others can use it as an option.

Firing while sprinting makes no sense for any weapon, so limiting it to light guns is neither an advantage nor disadvantage...
Author:  Kaboodles [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
Baklajan wrote:
There IS a reason to it. Try getting a real-sized toy assault rifle and run with it, its stock pressed to your shoulder and you'll see. You can't run fast because of that, 'cause that position restricts the mobility of the torso to a certain degree, and that would be true for anything humanlike and bipedal - be it a human, skaarj, skrith, cyborg or anything else that has two legs, two hands and a torso. You can't really fast holding a gun that way, let alone firing it in any decent manner (let alone aiming). However heavier rifles like M50 and SRS90 absolutely require a stock, while some others can use it as an option.

Firing while sprinting makes no sense for any weapon, so limiting it to light guns is neither an advantage nor disadvantage...


You'd only be pressing the stock at your shoulder if you weren't trying to go quickly, like walking or crouching or standing still. Otherwise, if you're running you'd hold the gun with its stock not pressed against your body, like at the hip or with the stock under your shoulder. Your accuracy would be low, of course, but you'd still be able to fire. Heck, the 3rd person animations for the M353 and M925 show your character holding the gun at his hip, not with the stock at his shoulder.
Author:  Baklajan [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
At least as long as it goes to assault rifles, the deal is simple: you can't fire heavier assault rifles without pressing the stock against you - be it hip or shoulder, pressing something against your belly is just as hampering as pressing it at the shoulder. I'm not trying to say that this manner of wielding guns (pressing the stock against any area of the body) will slow you down, I just mean that wielding guns that can be held with the arm stretched right into the air (pistols, SMGs) will let you run faster than you would with a heavier, stock-bearing weapon. So I guess that stockless weapons should provide a bonus in speed, but just because of the lack of a stock they should naturally possess a lower stability /accuracy / cause more bobbing unless in aimed mode.

Collapsible stocks just offer an extra option to choose how you would prefer to hold the gun. Why the hell unfold the stock if you aren't planning to press it to the hip/belly/chest/shoulder/chin maybe? So stock on means a slower mode with less recoil and stock off means running faster than an average guy with a regular M50.
Author:  Kaboodles [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:57 am ]
Post subject:  My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
So you can't fire the heavier weapons without pressing the stock against you. Fine. I'm cool with that.

But that doesn't mean you could never ever run as quickly holding a weapon with the full stock as you can with a weapon with a short or no stock (or the same weapon with the stock folded in). All you have to do with the full-stock weapon is sacrifice any shooting ability to run at full speed. Kinda like this guy:

Image

He looks like he's running as fast as he can. He's got a pretty big rifle, but it doesn't seem to be slowing him down. Stockless, short-stocked or adjustable-stocked weapons can do this while running by simply holding the gun differently from this guy.


You can easily represent this with Sprint. Full-stocked weapons can't fire while sprinting, others can.
Author:  Baklajan [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:50 am ]
Post subject:  My final try on Aiming / Walk and Run / Collapsible Stock
Yes, that's what I mean, exactly. The guy is sprinting, so he can't shoot. Quite logical. He's carrying a stock-bearing, full-length, two-handed weapon. He would act the same with an SMG if he wanted to run really fast, too, save maybe for a limited shooting capability retained in that case due to the single-handed nature of the SMG. The speed would be the same just like I described in one of the initial posts.

But if he wanted to retain some decent degree of shooting capability, he'd go slower - and in this case he'd be moving faster with a stockless weapon, because 'any decent degree of shooting capability' means pressing a full-length gun against himself while that doesn't apply to something that doesn't have a stock (made in order to offer greater mobility, by the way).

Making full-stock weapons unable to fire while sprinting and stockless ones able just don't make a difference since firing something stockless while running like crazy won't result in any decent accuracy, most likely no one will get hit by your bullets in this case anyway... Well I have nothing against such a feature and I agree on adding it to the mode, but it doesn't influence the balance difference between the two modes of the collapsibles to any noticeable extent.
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