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SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
https://www.runestorm.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=50767		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Industry [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:15 am ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
The SAR-12 is one of my favorite assault weapons, but what annoys me the most is that
it shares the same ammo as the M-50 AR. :( i would like to see the SAR-12 have a more unique ammo
type that dosent leech of the M-50 ammo reserve. and giving it a unique ammo type would add to the challange for finding ammunition for the SAR-12, sense using M-50 reserve takes away the challange (and fun) of Hunting SAR-12 Magazines instead of both SAR-12 and M-50 Rounds. ( use the same assault rifle (Or similer) rounds but from its own ammo reserve insted of the M-50's)
Oh, and please change the SAR-12's ammo icon from the M-50's to the appriate green SAR-12 mags. [img][img]http://imageshack.us/thumbnmail.png[/img] [/img]
i would like to see SAR-12 get its own ammo Reserve in the next patch update. 8)
Author:  Kaboodles [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:42 am ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
Please also extend this to the XK2 and Fifty-9, as well as the MRT6 and M763/M290. Those really ought to be separate
Author:  Industry [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:28 am ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
Whoops. lets not forget about fifty-9 xk2 and mrt6. the XK2 and fifty nine use same ammo but the XK2
shoots reguler bullets and fifty-9 bullets have blue flash. that dosent make much sense and need seperate ammo reserves (along with a new HUD ammo icon for the fifty-9 sense it uses the XK2 ammo icon). and MRT6 from orther shotguns sense MRT6 shells are Magazene loaded and Purple, where the orther shotguns use red
shells. The HUD ammo icons (next to the ammo counter) need to be changed.
SAR-12 ammo icon uses the M-50 white and red striped mags and gernades. please change it to the green SAR-12 mags.
The fifty-9 uses the XK2 ammo icon, Needs to be the blue striped fifty-9 mags.
and the MRT6, which uses the box of RED shotgun shells.Needs to be replaced by the MRT6 Magazene Icon.
Author:  Souls Stream [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:22 am ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
Well, I like it the way it is, it force you to manage your amunitions rather than firing everywhere for a killing spree :)
Author:  Industry [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
i think ammo management is better suited for slower paced and more lineier fps games(such as squad based
fps or something more tactical).
but unreal is more fast paced and BW uses an innacuracy system that can drain your ammo if yor not
careful about where or how you shoot. and i enjoy the challange of finding ammo for the approiate gun
insted of using a ammo reserve that leeches of anorther guns reserve. 8)
also a combination of ammo management and the fast paced nature of unreal might not be the best idea.
Author:  Bulska [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
BW isnt meant to really maintain the fast action of UT2k4, it is possible, but not meant for it.
The inaccuracy and recoil sliders and all those options to have stable guns like UT2k4 make it easily possible for fast action jumping.

But with them on, you just have to stand still for a sec.
You get a 100% perfect aim when you sit still :D

I dont see much use for an unique ammo request, 9mm rounds are infact 9mm rounds.

But then I dont mind seeing it in the game as optional :D
So yeah, if it makes some people happy, go for it and make another checkbox!
Author:  Kaboodles [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
Arguments for separating the ammo pools:

1. They come in different packages. The M50's 5.56mm rounds come in 30-round magazines, while the SAR-12's come in larger 40-round mags. It doesn't really make sense that the two can be interchange-able. Same with the XK2 and Fifty-9, and the MRT6 clips and 12-gauge shell boxes. Plus, the M353 and XMV850 both use 5.56mm rounds as well. Should they share the same ammo as the M50 and SAR-12?

2. It limits the effectiveness of a loadout that contains both weapons. Some people may want to carry an M50 for ranged combat and SAR-12 for close quarters. The ammo pools make the pairing less desirable, as you can only carry about half of the ammo you normally get if you choose, say an SAR-12 and SRS900.

3. The Fifty-9 and XK2 may both fire 9mm rounds, but their muzzle flashes and tracers are very different. There is nothing you can add to a gun that changes the color of the muzzle flash or tracer. That's all determined by the chemical propellants and the material the tracer contains. They're different rounds.
Author:  Industry [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
Quote:
Arguments for separating the ammo pools:

1. They come in different packages. The M50's 5.56mm rounds come in 30-round magazines, while the SAR-12's come in larger 40-round mags. It doesn't really make sense that the two can be interchange-able. Same with the XK2 and Fifty-9, and the MRT6 clips and 12-gauge shell boxes. Plus, the M353 and XMV850 both use 5.56mm rounds as well. Should they share the same ammo as the M50 and SAR-12?

2. It limits the effectiveness of a loadout that contains both weapons. Some people may want to carry an M50 for ranged combat and SAR-12 for close quarters. The ammo pools make the pairing less desirable, as you can only carry about half of the ammo you normally get if you choose, say an SAR-12 and SRS900.

3. The Fifty-9 and XK2 may both fire 9mm rounds, but their muzzle flashes and tracers are very different. There is nothing you can add to a gun that changes the color of the muzzle flash or tracer. That's all determined by the chemical propellants and the material the tracer contains. They're different rounds.
i Fully agree with you, Kaboodles. :)
Also the GRS9 and M806A2 dont have ammo Icons. thay just have a blank space in the ammo meter box,and fix the icons of the SAR-12,Fifty-9 nd MRT6 sense thay use the m-50's, XK2's and the Box of RED 12 gauge ammo used by the M763 and M290 shotguns which must be inserted by hand isted of a clip that uses blue 12 gauge shells.
Author:  Souls Stream [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:50 am ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
Right Kaboodles, you've go a point in there !lol

Though I like the idea of Bulska, the checkbox !
Author:  Industry [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
if you dont know what i mean by "ammo icons" then hear are some screenies.
Image
notice the M-50 clips and grenades on the blue ammo box.
Image
these are the Real SAR-12 clips.
Image
the fifty-9 uses the XK2 SMG clips in the ammo box.
Image
the true Fifty-9 ammo clip.
Image
the GRS9 does not have an one.
Image
GRS9 clips.
Image
the MRT6 uses the box of RED shotgun ammo.
Image
MRT6 clips with PURPLE shells.

i would like to see these fixed in the next patch update. :)

EDIT: made a mistake by calling SAR clips M-50's %-6
Author:  Kaboodles [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
A checkbox would be really weird. It would basically ask the user if he wants ammo pools that make sense, or ammo pools that don't.
Author:  Bjossi [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
It would be no different than the Reloading checkbox; you're being asked if you want the guns to make sense or not.

It all comes down to opinion, it is a video game after all, doesn't have to make sense.
Author:  Industry [ Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:02 am ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
true.but it would be cool if they wher seperate.
as it adds an "ammo Hunt" Challange to it, which i enjoy and gives the guns more uniqueness to them.
8)
Author:  Kaboodles [ Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:56 am ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
The reload checkbox significantly changes the way the game is played. Separating the ammo pools for just 3 pairs of weapons is not worthy of a separate checkbox. Really, who would consciously choose to keep the ammo pools the same? There is no benefit to it, and most people really wouldn't care either way.
Author:  Souls Stream [ Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
Kaboodles wrote:
A checkbox would be really weird. It would basically ask the user if he wants ammo pools that make sense, or ammo pools that don't.


Ah, said that way... lol !lol

I never noticed the problem of the icons... I don't really look at them actually, as long as the weapon has ammo it's all that matter to me In Game !lol
Author:  Industry [ Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
will the seprate ammo be in the next patch or bonus pack? please put seprate ammo pools for the weapons in the next update (and fix the ammo icons aswell) thanks. :)
Author:  Captain Xavious [ Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
Why would the two assault rifles have seperate amos again...? I mean, the 5.56 AR round is pretty much standard in assult rifles around the world, why would there be a separation in the two if they still use the same ammo?
Author:  Kaboodles [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:49 am ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
Captain Xavious wrote:
Why would the two assault rifles have seperate amos again...? I mean, the 5.56 AR round is pretty much standard in assult rifles around the world, why would there be a separation in the two if they still use the same ammo?


They come in different-sized magazines. Also, in the ammo indicators for the weapons show icons for the wrong gun. The SAR-12 shows an icon for M50 magazines and grenades, and the Fifty-9 shows XK2 magazines.

Plus, if you separate them, you'll be able to carry more ammo if you carry both guns.

EDIT: Also, some ammunition is just different. MRT6 shells are blue, while M763/M290 shells are red. Fifty-9 rounds use a different chemical propellant and tracer from the XK2.
Author:  Sgt. Kelly [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:13 am ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
Doing this would be extremely easy.

All you'd have to do would be to take the ammo pickup for say, the Fifty-9, and change its properties so that it feeds into a hypothetical ammo pool of Ammo_Fifty9.uc, which you would create. Then by simply going into the Fifty-9's weapon mode properties and changing its ammo to your newly created Ammo_Fifty9 class, everything would work out.


The edited files would be:
-Ammo_'Weapon'.uc
-AP_'Weapon'.uc
-'Weapon'PrimaryFire.uc
-'Weapon'SecondaryFire.uc
Author:  Captain Xavious [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:31 am ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
Kaboodles, you misunderstand me. I can see reason for the other weapons, but a 5.56 AR round is a 5.5 AR round. Sure, the icons aren't correct, and of course the two rifles use a different kind of clip, thats natural for two different guns, but they still use the same rounds.

I don't see point in separating the ammo. So what if you could carry more ammo?

I could see if the ammo icons were tweaked and ammo amounts were altered to be more friendly with both guns, so that you don't end up with four and a half clips for the SAR in reserve while the M50 has an even amount of clips worth of ammo, but thats about as far as it should go.

Also, as for why the Fifty-9 has different muzzle flashes and tracers from the XK2, the weapon description says something about a custom muzzle device that changes the colours. Don't know how that's supposed to work, but its pretty clear to me that it is intended to use the XK2 ammo type.
Author:  Bulska [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
Fifty-9 has a special device to make the flash blue? well it is science fiction dont forget that, so its pretty much possible.

And for different 'ammo clips', it does not matter. The remaining ammo (ammo out of gun) is not displayed in 'magazines', it's displayed in 'rounds'. So why should different magazines matter anything if the ammo isn't stored in differents? You can just switch the rounds from magazine to magazine too... and I'm sure that marines in the future have an automatic ammo sorting device.

You also say that the max ammo for a SAR and M50 is less then when having a SRS9000 and a SAR. A solution for this would be to increase the maximal ammo when you have both the SAR and M50.
Author:  Kaboodles [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
The easiest way to get the ammo icons right would be to separate the ammo pools.

I mean really, by your logic the M353 and XMV850 should share the same ammo as well, since they all fire 5.56 mm rounds.

If we do what you're proposing and just increase the max ammo for SAR/M50 rounds, you're giving both weapons an advantage in having a much larger maximum ammo capacity than the other weapons.

Also, there's pretty much no way for a gun to change the color of the muzzle flash and tracer. Even if such a device did exist, it would either be very expensive or indicative of highly advanced technological know-how that should very much have been applied to more important things, like producing new weapon designs that aren't (by BW's timeline) 200 years old :P .

I can't believe I'm actually arguing about this.
Author:  Captain Xavious [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
By my logic, the guns firing the 5.56 AR rounds would share ammo... the M353 and XMV850 have different sized cartridges, the two assault rifles use the exact same ammo, not just the same calibre...

I never said the ammo max for the 5.56 AR rounds should be increased, just tweaked. Maybe that would involve changing clip sizes, maybe it'd include lessening the ammo amount, maybe increase it.

Besides, weren't you the one that said if the guns had separate ammo amounts you'd be able to carry more ammo if you got the both guns? ;)

As for the flash/tracer colour changing device, its supposed to be expensive and flashy, but I don't really know what else to say about it past that.

Though if I were to guess I'd say that there was simply a coating in the muzzle tip that that would rub off and burn with the other gases to change the colours. Not really a very high tech device, though it seems like it'd need to be replaced/recoated frequently.
Author:  OCAdam [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
Maybe the clip of the Fifty-9 has a coater that coats the bullets to be blue, making the tracer and muzzle fire also blue?

Anyways, I'd rather just do what stock UT did when you grabbed two ARs. The max ammo DOUBLED. This way, you had 2 ARs, but also could shoot just as long as a single one. In CoD4, the same type of concept applied. If you had a G36 and M4, they'd combine to have a max ammo reserve of 800 rather than 400. Those two guns obviously use different clips, but they have the same bullet caliber and length.

This is why I like my BW mod, all guns that have the same caliber use the same ammo pool. Even machineguns and miniguns. I just go with the idea that you have a sort of system that can go and fill clips with certain calibers automatically when you've switched to it. Be complex, but doable in real life too (currently even!).
Author:  Kaboodles [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
Captain Xavious wrote:
By my logic, the guns firing the 5.56 AR rounds would share ammo... the M353 and XMV850 have different sized cartridges, the two assault rifles use the exact same ammo, not just the same calibre...


Where does it say they use different-sized cartridges?

Captain Xavious wrote:
I never said the ammo max for the 5.56 AR rounds should be increased, just tweaked. Maybe that would involve changing clip sizes, maybe it'd include lessening the ammo amount, maybe increase it.

Besides, weren't you the one that said if the guns had separate ammo amounts you'd be able to carry more ammo if you got the both guns? ;)


In the current system, it would be slightly disadvantageous to carry both an SAR-12 and an M50, or any of the weapons that share ammo because you won't be able to carry as much maximum ammo as you would if you chose two different guns.

Simply increasing that one ammo pool (which was Bulska's suggestion I guess) would remove this disadvantage when the two weapons are paired, but it would give the guns an advantage when paired with another gun (SAR-12 + SRS900, or M50 + Shotgun, etc.) because you would now be able to carry more ammo than if you chose any other weapon.


Captain Xavious wrote:
As for the flash/tracer colour changing device, its supposed to be expensive and flashy, but I don't really know what else to say about it past that.

Though if I were to guess I'd say that there was simply a coating in the muzzle tip that that would rub off and burn with the other gases to change the colours. Not really a very high tech device, though it seems like it'd need to be replaced/recoated frequently.


The easiest explanation would indeed be custom Krome-manufactured 9mm rounds for the Fifty-9.



I'm not seeing your arguments here. I haven't seen one argument that states why the current system is better than the one proposed.
Author:  Captain Xavious [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
Kaboodles wrote:
Captain Xavious wrote:
By my logic, the guns firing the 5.56 AR rounds would share ammo... the M353 and XMV850 have different sized cartridges, the two assault rifles use the exact same ammo, not just the same calibre...


Where does it say they use different-sized cartridges?


Doesn't say they don't. :P

Kaboodles wrote:
Captain Xavious wrote:
As for the flash/tracer colour changing device, its supposed to be expensive and flashy, but I don't really know what else to say about it past that.

Though if I were to guess I'd say that there was simply a coating in the muzzle tip that that would rub off and burn with the other gases to change the colours. Not really a very high tech device, though it seems like it'd need to be replaced/recoated frequently.


The easiest explanation would indeed be custom Krome-manufactured 9mm rounds for the Fifty-9.


Yeah, that makes sense too, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are different cartridges.

Kaboodles wrote:
I'm not seeing your arguments here. I haven't seen one argument that states why the current system is better than the one proposed.


To be honest, I can say the same to your arguments. :p

Eh, oh well, if this gets implemented I could simply bring it back to the original form, though in all honesty I probably wouldn't really care enough to do it, save for with the assault rifles. :P
Author:  Kaboodles [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
Captain Xavious wrote:
Doesn't say they don't. :P


You were the one who claimed they were different.

Captain Xavious wrote:
Yeah, that makes sense too, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are different cartridges.


It's the simplest explanation, therefore it wins. :P


Captain Xavious wrote:
To be honest, I can say the same to your arguments. :p



I wrote:
Arguments for separating the ammo pools:

1. They come in different packages. The M50's 5.56mm rounds come in 30-round magazines, while the SAR-12's come in larger 40-round mags. It doesn't really make sense that the two can be interchange-able. Same with the XK2 and Fifty-9, and the MRT6 clips and 12-gauge shell boxes. Plus, the M353 and XMV850 both use 5.56mm rounds as well. Should they share the same ammo as the M50 and SAR-12?

2. It limits the effectiveness of a loadout that contains both weapons. Some people may want to carry an M50 for ranged combat and SAR-12 for close quarters. The ammo pools make the pairing less desirable, as you can only carry about half of the ammo you normally get if you choose, say an SAR-12 and SRS900.

3. The Fifty-9 and XK2 may both fire 9mm rounds, but their muzzle flashes and tracers are very different. There is nothing you can add to a gun that changes the color of the muzzle flash or tracer. That's all determined by the chemical propellants and the material the tracer contains. They're different rounds.


Furthermore:

4. As a result of the combined ammo pools, the Fifty-9, SAR-12, and MRT6 show ammo for the XK2, M50, and M763/M290, respectively. The simplest way to do this is to separate the ammo.

5. Nothing bad could possibly come out of this, and would take all of 5 minutes to do. Dunno about making icons though. That'll probably take a bit longer, but not by much.


As far as I see it, the only arguments to keep it are:

1. It's more convenient in some situations.
2. Status quo. It works ok as is, and requires no additional work.
Author:  OCAdam [ Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
OCAdam wrote:
Maybe the clip of the Fifty-9 has a coater that coats the bullets to be blue, making the tracer and muzzle fire also blue?

Anyways, I'd rather just do what stock UT did when you grabbed two ARs. The max ammo DOUBLED. This way, you had 2 ARs, but also could shoot just as long as a single one. In CoD4, the same type of concept applied. If you had a G36 and M4, they'd combine to have a max ammo reserve of 800 rather than 400. Those two guns obviously use different clips, but they have the same bullet caliber and length.

This is why I like my BW mod, all guns that have the same caliber use the same ammo pool. Even machineguns and miniguns. I just go with the idea that you have a sort of system that can go and fill clips with certain calibers automatically when you've switched to it. Be complex, but doable in real life too (currently even!).


Reposting my earlier post. You guys seemed to have ignored all my ideas.
Author:  Bulska [ Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
-.-

I see that some ppl dont want it and some do want to make it seperate

1 suitable option to make ppl happy

CHECKBOX!
Author:  OCAdam [ Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:12 am ]
Post subject:  SAR-12 unique ammo Request.
Bulska wrote:
-.-

I see that some ppl dont want it and some do want to make it seperate

1 suitable option to make ppl happy

CHECKBOX!


Unfortunately that means making a new set of weapons for the same guns, or at least the S-AR12 and Fifty-9. On top of that, it's about 2 UC codes for just one gun's ammo, which doesn't include the UC codes for the guns themselves.
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