2 Bjossi: I'll post a more detailed answere here a bit later... but the paragraph which you are criticizing is actually what was inspired primarily by your ideas. Melee attack requires the quickest operation possible, so having to choose it as a mode with mouse buttons or keyboard keys is a no go. The thing is that you should be able to perform melee and distant attack almost simultaneously, that's often happens in close quarter combat when you are chasing an enemy and sometimes get a good moment for stabbing him.

Also, your propositions involve too many buttons. I don't see any serious reason why we can't choose attaches from a short list of weapon functions and why Fire can not be such a function. With left and right mouse buttons, it won't take more than 1,5 seconds to choose and activate anything, then switch back to fire. 3rd mouse button is rather inconvenient 'cause it's actually the mouse wheel which is used as a button, and clicking it all the time isn't the best idea. But it could host a function that instantly reverts the weapon function choice to fire. Though I'd be happy to choose between fire and attaches with the Right mouse button, in some urgent situations I could use such a function.

Also, people don't attach and detach silencers or toggle on and off laser sights ten times a minute, so you won't have to use the right mouse button too often. IDEA: why not give the attaches separate complementary keys of their own, like V and B. Though this might seem a bit inconvenient to some people, it's always good to have duplicate triggers.


You are virtually repeating what I meant, just in other words.

My opinion is that if silencers had some other functions besides just silencing, they'd make sense and thus no longer be useless. Also, I'd like to see some more attaches, actually I thought that if a gun has one attach (let's suppose laser sights are also 'attachables'), why not give it another?

So my ideas are:

XRS-10 Machine Pistol: Bullet Stabilizer (ex-Silencer) and Laser Sights. Bullet Stabilizer is the thing that we used to call 'the big fat silencer'. When attached, it halves the damage but gives a serious accuracy bonus. To put it short, it converts the bullet energy into its spinning momentum.

Fifty-9 SMG: Collapsible stock and a Bullet Accelerator. The bullet accelerator looks much like a silencer or a barrel extension, it doubles the damage but restricts auto fire so you are only limited to single. It also imposes a 0.75 sec pause between shots.

XK-2 SMG: A bullet accelerator (ex-silencer) and a 3x optic scope. This variant of bullet accelerator doesn't restrict auto fire, gives a lesser damage bonus, and adds quite a bit of inaccuracy. The 3x scope is a good attachable for a spec ops gun, anyway the gun isn't accurate enough to make a cheat of it. When you are aiming with the scope, it doesn't act like a sniper scope and occupy the most part of the screen: the aiming animation and pose stay the same, and the scope retains its real proportions, being some inches away from your nose. Just like a 3-inch circle with a zoomed picture inside, and everything around is just the regular game picture: the world, the enemies, the weapon pressed against your chest...

M806 Pistol: Laser sights and a 2x scope. Yes, I said 2x scope. The M806 lacks the originality that the other pistols have, it looks and acts just like some plain XX century gun. Why not give it a 2x scope in addition to the laser sights? I always thought a pistol with scope would be fun. You just stretch your hands forward, aim and look through the scope without getting it close to your face. Almost the same way you aim it without the scope. With the scope, it's easier to kill at longer distances, but in close combat it's gonna be very annoying rather than helpful.

D49 - Cobra Revolver: Red dot sights and a barrel extender. The first thing we've already got, the second thing is probably the least technologically advanced of all the silencers and barrel attaches, but yet highly effective. It just doubles the length of D49's barrels, giving it a really pimp look. The advantage is that you get a much better accuracy, so D49 becomes an even deadlier weapon. The disadvantage is that the gun sway is severely increased while moving, so it's harder to shoot anything when you run. Also, the time required to stabilize the gun in your hands after each shot is doubled. So it gives you a chance to snipe somebody while standing, but makes it harder to aim while running. (I remember some film, perhaps Batman 4 or something, where a villain brought down some kind of aircraft with a single bullet from a revolver that had an unnaturally long barrel; that could look cool with a double-barrelled Cobra).

RS8 10mm Pistol: a silencer and laser sights. Just make the silencer work in such a way that nobody hears the gun's sound at a distance greater than five meters, no matter how loud the silenced fire sound is, and this pistol will be very popular during Onslaught matches: when fighting on open territory, it's hard to guess where your enemy is if his gun doesn't make any sounds.

Some of these ideas are given a more detailed description in this thread: http://runestorm.za.net/pl/forum/forum_ ... .php?33643

Well.... I see... Some keyboards now have keys with no markings...

To the point:
The idea of having similar functions of weapons activated by the same key is good, we can check and see if they can be moved around as nessecary...

The sight mode does not remove recoil and innacuracy effects and make the weapons unfair, it just makes things *different* by locking the camera to the gun and all its wierd movements...

We preferre sight mode to switch in amore realistic manner, it looks better and it is more like RL.

If you think silencers are useless, you need to play against opponents who know how to use them...
(Most things that one person beleives are useless in BW, another will have learnt and believe is devastating)

The control system that you have attempted to describe by complex means seems to impose way to many limitations on weapon design and places to much importance on weapon function switching at the cost of overall speed and simplicity...

If someone would list the feature described here in a SHORT list, maybe RS could read them with the limited time available to us...

I'm afraid you are deeply mistaken, my friend. The main idea behind the whole this thread is that you should be able to spend as little time on weapon operation as possible. The way we have it now, BW controls are drastically irrational. It takes a lot of time to do anything with any of weapons. Probably you just got confused because things have changed a lot here since the first post. I'll compile a short concept paper for you to read instead of the whole long thread. But the one fact nobody can deny is that the current control system in BW haven't got neither logics nor simplicity.


I wish it were so, but somehow most of recoil and chaos go bye-bye when I'm aiming. When I use sights, it feels like a cheat. A bug probably?!


As a former game developer I can say that first of all, any feature should be player friendly, and only then realism should be considered. If the Aim function is bound to a KEYBOARD key, you can't have it pressed for a few seconds, because that blocks the strafe contols. Few people have got an extra index finger. Also I don't understand how it could help the aiming look better? The animation stays the same, and the time required to aim stays the same. It's only the aim key that's pressed once instead of holding it for a few moments...


I'll make a list, for sure.

Here's the gist of my and Bjossi's ideas for the developers to consider (Bjossi gave me a lot of ideas on making my concept less complicated and convinced me that a separate key for melee attack really makes sense; I also give him the credit for guessing the idea about different weapon functions being switched between with the right mouse button and activated with the left, I'm way too stupid to have guessed such a good solution on my own)

Sorry for the long post, but I did my best at compressing all of the ideas into something a bit more compact than the enormous "toilet paper diaries" above, that seem to stretch even longer and longer as you read them

You can also read a couple of my long posts posted two days ago on April, 4 to read about the same ideas expressed in a more verbose manner and Bjossi's comments to them, but any earlier posts contain very outdated info and might confuse you.



So, let's begin. First of all, I'd like to dwell on the majority of weapons which neither has a silencer nor laser sights, i.e. they don't have an attach (we've come up with this more or less correct term to denote any optional gadgets that can be toggled on and off).

The function distribution for this kind of weapons is:

Primary Fire - presumably associated with the Left Mouse Button in a default config - just makes the gun fire, that's all.

Secondary Fire - presumably associated with the Right Mouse Button in a default config - is used exclusively for complementary distant attacks, including anything from the M50 grenade launcher to Lightning Gun's aimed arc.

Melee Attack - presumably associated with the E key in a default config - ya, a separate key for melee attacks. Just to make it possible to have a weapon with primary and secondary fire, and a melee attack. Because we might want one. Also this would enable adding melee capability to almost any imaginable weapon regardless of the rest of its functions.

Toggle Fire Mode - presumably associated with the F key in a default config - toggles between the available Fire Modes. This choice may or may not affect the Secondary Fire. Obviously the single/burst/auto selection has nothing to do with the M50's grenade launcher, but if we used the Toggle Fire Mode switch to choose between different types of fuel for the Flamethrower, like Napalm/Sludge/Liquid Nitrogen, each of them would get exclusive Primary AND Secondary Fire. So we'd actually get 6 ways to fire a flamethrower, 2 types of attack multiplied by 3 kinds of fuel.

Aim a.k.a Use Iron Sights - presumably associated with the F key in a default config - as DarkCarnivour stated it, the iron sights at least should not "remove recoil and innacuracy effects and make the weapons unfair, it just" should make "things *different* by locking the camera to the gun and all its wierd movements..." - but so far it looks like aiming somehow gives an enormous accuracy bonus, due to a bug perhaps. Using the sights gives me such a huge advantage that I feel like I were cheating when killing bots at Godlike, though I'm rather a mediocre player. A more advanced idea involves introducing reasonable accuracy bonuses and movement speed penalties for the aiming mode, the values depending on the gun. I guess I won't be mistaken if I say that the maximum accuracy bonus shouldn't exceed +30% and the maximum movement speed penalty shouldn't exceed -30%.

In other words, the speed penalty should be proportional to the accuracy bonus and shouldn't be big enough to annoy the player. A speed penalty doesn't mean that the player will be limited to slow walk while aiming like in Battlefield 2... A light weapon that has noticeable recoil, like the XRS-10, is likely to have a little accuracy bonus while in the aiming mode and almost no speed penalty. It's the heavy guns and the assault rifles that will be affected the most.

The simple reason for implementing this is just to make the game more diverse. On some occasions, you'll profit from aiming, but there will be a lot of situations where resorting to unaimed fire is the best choice. At the same time, both ways won't be too different from each other to confuse or annoy the players who are used to the fast pace of BW and UT2004. I think it'll be a good example of a compromise between realism, fun and diversity.

Now a few words about the aiming key itself. I have nothing against Runestorm's idea that aiming should take a few seconds, I love the current aiming animation and don't think it should be changed... but... a really huge BUT... the aiming key should be hit JUST ONCE for activating it (and than the regular aiming animation is played, taking a few moments) Having to press the key for a few moments to aim successfully distracts the player from using his strafe controls A & D, and that's awfully annoying, especially when every millisecond matters. It's plain physiology, the human lack of index fingers is rather disturbing, but you have to submit.

Reload - presumably associated with the R key in a default config - that's just the good old reload that will always stay the same.

Now, the sore subject. Laser sights, silencers and key synchronization. I suppose we could use a two-way system for activating those.

The first, and probably not the best, but obviously the simplest way to resolve the problem is to make two absolutely independent keys for silencers and laser sights, not associated with Secondary Fire, Weapon Special or anything - be it M and N or G and H - or anything you want. One of the keys toggles on and off the laser sights with all weapons, the other attaches/detaches the silencer with all the weapons.

The second way, which in my opinion should be a complement to the first and not a replacement, is using the Right Mouse button to scroll through Attach Silencer, Toggle Laser Sights and Fire, then using the Left Mouse button to activate/deactivate the function. When the selected function is Fire, the gun fires. This should be the rule even for the guns that have only a silencer or only laser sights to prevent possible player claims like "Why the hell the pistol X toggles the laser sight on with the right mouse button while the pistol Y activates the silencer and the pistol Z uses the right mouse button to scroll between the two available options!!" I know it's illogical to toggle between Fire and Silencer first, then activate the silencer with the left mouse button and then toggle back to Fire instead of just pressing the right mouse button once, but anyway it won't be an undertaking and won't waste too much time... and we'll finally be able to put an end to the sore point about laser sights / silencer key desynchronization.

Some people will find it easier to activate the attaches with two special keys, and some will prefer the mouse buttons. Anyway, that's way better and more logical than what we currently have.

An important note: you should keep in mind that laser sights and silencers are almost exclusively found with ballistic pistols and SMGs, which do not have an alternate fire (besides melee attacks, which will presumable have a special key of their own), so using the right mouse button for scrolling between available attaches won't be a sacrifice of functionality.

I think that's all about the controls. Now, a bunch of other ideas.

There was a suggestion made by me that the single shot for the double shotgun should be a Toggle Fire Mode option and not a secondary fire. Now I'm not that sure about it, but if it stays the secondary fire, then it would be better to swap the two so Left Mouse Button is single shot and Right Mouse button is a double shot, to synchronize it with the Cobra Revolver which has a single shot for primary fire and a double shot for secondary.

I still don't think silencers are of any use, but I don't mind if they retain their silencing abilites. Though I think it'll be great to have more attaches and a greater variety of functions for the existing ones. That is, the silencers should be made into hi-tech barrel extensions that have additional impact on the gameplay.

XRS-10 Machine Pistol: Bullet Stabilizer (ex-Silencer) and Laser Sights. Bullet Stabilizer is the thing that we used to call 'the big fat silencer'. When attached, it halves the damage but gives a serious accuracy bonus. To put it short, it converts the bullet energy into its spinning momentum.

Fifty-9 SMG: Collapsible stock and a Bullet Accelerator. The bullet accelerator looks much like a silencer or a barrel extension, it doubles the damage but restricts auto fire so you are only limited to single. It also imposes a 0.75 sec pause between shots.

XK-2 SMG: A bullet accelerator (ex-silencer) and a 3x optic scope. This variant of bullet accelerator doesn't restrict auto fire, gives a lesser damage bonus, and adds quite a bit of inaccuracy. The 3x scope is a good attachable for a spec ops gun, anyway the gun isn't accurate enough to make a cheat of it. When you are aiming with the scope, it doesn't act like a sniper scope and occupy the most part of the screen: the aiming animation and pose stay the same, and the scope retains its real proportions, being some inches away from your nose. Just like a 3-inch circle with a zoomed picture inside, and everything around is just the regular game picture: the world, the enemies, the weapon pressed against your chest...

M806 Pistol: Laser sights and a 2x scope. Yes, I said 2x scope. The M806 lacks the originality that the other pistols have, it looks and acts just like some plain XX century gun. Why not give it a 2x scope in addition to the laser sights? I always thought a pistol with scope would be fun. You just stretch your hands forward, aim and look through the scope without getting it close to your face. Almost the same way you aim it without the scope. With the scope, it's easier to kill at longer distances, but in close combat it's gonna be very annoying rather than helpful.

D49 - Cobra Revolver: Red dot sights and a barrel extender. The first thing we've already got, the second thing is probably the least technologically advanced of all the silencers and barrel attaches, but yet highly effective. It just doubles the length of D49's barrels, giving it a really pimp look. The advantage is that you get a much better accuracy, so D49 becomes an even deadlier weapon. The disadvantage is that the gun sway is severely increased while moving, so it's harder to shoot anything when you run. Also, the time required to stabilize the gun in your hands after each shot is doubled. So it gives you a chance to snipe somebody while standing, but makes it harder to aim while running. (I remember some film, perhaps Batman 4 or something, where a villain brought down some kind of aircraft with a single bullet from a revolver that had an unnaturally long barrel; that could look cool with a double-barrelled Cobra).

RS8 10mm Pistol: a silencer and laser sights. Just make the silencer work in such a way that nobody hears the gun's sound at a distance greater than five meters, no matter how loud the silenced fire sound is, and this pistol will be very popular during Onslaught matches: when fighting on open territory, it's hard to guess where your enemy is if his gun doesn't make any sounds.

I totally agree that all of the weapons should have a melee feature... it's usually too much trouble to switch to a katana when you're in the middle of a fight and someone pops up right next to you. Besides, what's a pistol without pistol whipping? ;b

I really would like to bash someone over the head with the butt of my battle rifle. That'd be sexy.

But yeah I'm feeling the ambience going on in this post, I feel every weapon should have a specific key set for the lazer sights, the meleeing, the silencers, and of course the alt fire.

The way I have it set up, I have F set to switch to melee weapons, WASD set to movement, E set to dual wield/swap dual weapons, Z set to weapon special, X set to weapon fire mode, C set to crouch, right click set as secondary fire, left as primary, middle mouse button set to sights, etc.

The iron sights are definently one of the best features in this mod, but they could definently be tweaked a little to look a little more realistic like in COD.



Of course I'm sure they're aware of this, and I'm absolutely sure they'll be working on it ;b

Anyway I'm done, that's my two cents

The question is when; they'll be on a vacation for a while, 2.0 took many months of development.

Here's a pic how barrel extensions for Fifty-9 and the like could look:

I wonder if the devs have ever considered what I was saying in the latest edition of this wishlist, namely the post made up of yellow letters, at the bottom of page #1 of this thread; I'm suspicious about the next version of the mod keeping the old stupid controls system...

P.S. I hope we have reached some sort of agreement with everybody on this point... I mean the final variant of the wishlist, not what I was originally proposing.

I'm more suspicious if there will be a next version at all. It is a known fact that there won't be 3.0, so the best we will get is a patch, and I wouldn't doubt they'll make a total overhaul of the controls system. Because I'd be kind of disappointed if they wouldn't, since you bring up great points about it.

Doesn't a patch mean a new version? 2.1 will definitely be newer than 2.0... I've never heard of patches that don't change the game version.

What I'd like to see included into this update is:

1. A straight controls system like the one described in the yellow letter post here.

2. A straight chaos system like the one described in http://runestorm.za.net/pl/forum/forum_ ... post_35630 with bonuses and penalties while in the aiming mode; but it looks like the current chaos system is nearly 90% identical to what I'm proposing, we just weren't given enough information on how it works. I mean, it seems that the bullets actually go where the barrel points, and it's the barrel direction that is affected by a random factor and not the bullet itself; and only after the bullet has left the barrel, the inaccuracy factor is applied to it.

3. A more flexible loadout configuration where you can define if a weapon occupies one or even two slots, which weapons can be selectable in which slots, a new approach to double wielding just like described here: http://runestorm.za.net/pl/forum/forum_ ... .php?34782

4. BW Controls tab should go into the Configure Mutator tab instead of hanging where it resides right now. I don't want it to appear in mods like Strike Force, etc., where it appears all the time getting on my nerves.

5. A new Lightning Gun concept that is more based on player's skill, just like the one proposed by me here (damage, fire rate and all are kept unchanged! not to upset the conservators): http://runestorm.za.net/pl/forum/forum_ ... 35165.post

6. A couple of new assault rifles, 'cause we only have three so far, and some energy weapons, 'cause we have almost none.

Then you can say that the mod is finished

Those would be perfect for a 2.1, or maybe those changes are big enough to allow for a 2.5 version number.

They have said there will be a patch by the way, we'll see what they have planned and they haven't. I can keep you updated if they tell me stuff that the public is allowed to know.

What a read!

Is all this discussion on key setup merely about the weapons firemodes? Its very hard to argue this when for all we know one person here may be using the right side number pad for movement, or someone may have a 5 button mouse and the additional special function and iron sight controls could be set to one of the extra mouse buttons.

I do wish I had one of those, currently iron sights is set to Y for me because every other key is naturally in use by something else. And I cannot compromise this since my choice in key setup is influenced by multiple other games out there, not just UT2004.

The result is using iron sights requires me to reach across the keyboard, so I rarely use it.

But as big as a problem this is, you cant expect runestorm to fix it. Key setup is our own responsibility.

But if there is anything RS can do, its that they could simplify the different controls required. A little more consistency with fire modes sure could help and I agree the silencers should not be activated by some special functions for one weapon when it is activated by an alternate fire mode for another, it just can be confusing sometimes.

I would much prefure if both my right and left mouse buttons only activated firemodes or features that "must do something now" and not special functions that stop me firing, or distract me in combat unless there is nothing else the weapon can do.

I have the special function set to my middle mouse button so I dont get fooled into thinking it does some utility on other games. Currently most weapons already do this and that is good.

And also some special functions could possibly trigger iron sights or fire modes. Which may help bring these features closer to your mouse buttons

For example the G5 locking ability requires you to view the iron sights (once again forcing me to reach across the keyborad), yet this could be its unused special function instead. That will make the G5 less sophisticated to control.

Why must I hit the iron sights key to view the G5 scope when with snipers rifles its simply a matter of hitting the alternate fire key? At least something can be done to tidy the control system up a bit.

Thats all I have to say for key setup and controls, but for everything else I think thats already been said and very well said at that.

My biggest gripe with the control system is in dual wielding. It is very annoying to have to switch weapons to apply silencers or activate the laser sights for both weapons.

Also annoying are the obscenely long commands for key binding.

set input c weaponspecial|onrelease weaponspecialrelease is annoying to have to explain to people who downloaded the mod from a game server.

Of course, the easy thing to do is to simply ignore command requests and tell them to download the mod, but I'm too nice

I don't see how switching the weapons to add silencers or turn lasers is a bad thing. I guess I can see someone being able to turn on lasers simultaneously, but face it, there is no way someone can put both silencers on at once. There really isn't any other way to do it.

But If something would be changed for dualweilding controls, something that might work (forgive me if already suggested) is to either add a new button (yay.) or make it so when you hold in the dualweild button, it works as a toggle switch, so holding that in and pressing spec. func. would apply to the second gun.

Of course, I see little point in this since its very easy and quick to switch guns and then apply all the options like normal.

Personally, my thoughts on what would be the best fix would be to set up your gun preferences before a game and those settings are applied whenever you pick up the gun. This idea is not mine, it's been mentioned a few times.

My suggestion is to restrict dual wielding of different types of guns. At least in the loadout mode. Twin pistols only.

Whats wrong with dual submachineguns?

The dual wielding system really is not that complicated. If you want different configurations for each gun, what we have is the only way to do it. Logically the only thing you can do simultaneously is pull the triggers. For everything else you would need to apply one at a time, lest you fumble and drop your guns.

With practice you can do it quickly.

hit dual wield...

configure gun A,
configure gun A,
swap,
configure gun B,
configure gun B,
swap,
done.

That only took 2 seconds

My only suggestion is to stop dual wielding forcing your weapon scrolling back to the top of the pistol list and not onto the shotgun list. Very annoying when you want a shotgun quick and you keep selecting more pistols.

They've said patches and a weapons pack are most likly, major release... in our dreams.

Not major release, patches and weapon bonus packs = many smaller releases.

ok.. as things stand, we'll be working on a patch, to fix bugs, add 1 or 2 features, and such small things.. after that, probably a simple weapon pack.. after that, then it'll be onto 2k7..

about all this though..

I dont see us majorly overhauling anything at the moment... When we get to bigger projects, we have complete power to fdo whatever, and not be limited by UT's screwy systems.. The control system you have described, seems more complicated than the current one.. i don't really like the idea of keys, which switch attack modes.. currently, its much faster to have a primary and secondary key.... the amount of work in having to transform such a system, could take alot of work.. for our later projects, we'd most likely have an attachements system..

Having a melee for every weapon.. that is OK.. we'd probably seriously consider it later on as well.. we're not gonna be stuck doing 2k4 mods forever!

Balance weapons too please.

Which reminds me. I need to move the thread on to pistols. Everyone's bored with silencers it seems.

Remember that everyone has their idea of balance. If they'd change the weapons now you and some other people would be happy, but others would dislike the changes. In other words; no progress whatsoever.

bottom line: pleasing everyone is impossible!! add too many options, and someone won't like that!!

the best we can do, is listen to everyones opinions, and make things how best we'd like it.. thats about it it's worked so far

I was thinking of adding a feature where you hold the dual key, then all non-firing instuctions go to the 'other gun' instead of the primary one. This way you wouldn't have to swap your guns to tweak silencers, lasers, etc...

As for the 'yellow post' uhhh... I am pretty busy now, I have thousands of obscure and complicated concepts to figure out, the best chance one has of getting understood and being implemented is if its explained in a SHORT summary.
Our current control layout has been designed as it is for several reasons:
-Similarity to standard, well used and 'familiar to FPS gamers' setups.
-Simplicity and least number of extra keys
-Within limitations of UT

If you bound your keys like the new system for BW, then tried to play ut... Imagine having no secondary fire button...
No, this way you keep all your good old familiar UT keys forward,back,left,right,jump, secfire,fire,use,crouch and we add reload,sights,special,dual,firemode.

reload,sights,special and firemode keys are used commonly in other FPSs, so most gamers will know what to do with them...

One day, we may overhaul the controls, but we don't intend to make it hard for gamers to use BWs controls when they are used to normal FPSs...

The 'yellow post' IS THE SUMMARY, put as short as possible. I've spent hours working on the concepts and listening to others' criticism, redesigning some features from scratch and thinking over Bjossi's and Xav's advice again and again... Now I see the devs can't find an hour to read and understand it. I'm a very busy person myself but somehow I was able to finish the thing, though.

The huge problem with the current system is that it's too gay, non-straight, illogical and what not.

[quote="#ff0000"]Actually it's the yellow post that is all about that, and definitely not the current BW controls. If you take the pain to read the yellow post you'll see it suggests using fewer keys than anyone else could ever suggest.[/color]

I find thats insanely easy, only a fish or someone without thumbs and fingers would find it hard, taht or you just have horrible hand eye coordination, if so, WHY THE F*CK ARE YOU PLAYING UNREAL TOURNAMENT 2004!



How the hell is it being simple 'gay' and 'illogical'? Have you never played games like Half Life 2 or Call of Duty?

Alright, we really need to calm down here. Lets chose our words a bit more carefully from now on, ok?

So you might not like the controls for the game. Maybe you do. The nice thing about UT2004 is that nothing has to be set in stone. With very little skill you can set things that you describe to your liking. Somethings aren't so lucky and I think maybe you shouldn't pass judgment too harshly until you see what exactly it is like to put up with rude comments to do a service to others by making something that hopefully people will like. Also try your hand at making stuff the quality that these people make it at.

So please (you included, UP), lets not result to immature things like calling things gay or using profanity, lets just calm down, think some things through, take a walk in the other persons' shoes, and just try and be a bit nicer, ok?

Opinions vary. One cannot be expected to please all of them, and one should not ridicule others for different opnions. Lets just be a little more compassionate to each other, ok?

We don't tolerate flaming on these forums. I thought you'd know that by now after all this time you have been a member.

And he is bringing up perfectly valid points. You don't seem to have any logical reasons to dislike them, so why do you?

btw iv used my arow keys cince the down of time iv ben playing pc games cince i was 4 lol
quake qauke 2 doom doom 2 half life the mechwarrior seiries and stuff like that including ut99 ^^

D'you know why I got so angry yesterday? There's a certain word in Russian, used to say that you've spent too much (apparently much more than normally required) effort trying to find some convincing arguments and deliver them to someone who is just too reluctant to analyze what you are saying, let alone bothering to form a well-grounded opinion as a response to those facts and arguments.

That's the verb self-crucify, or se crucifier as it's sometimes translated into French. In English this would be better rendered as a phrasal verb to crucify oneself in front of smb.

So, I've been crucifying myself in front of the devs for too long only to receive a 'sorry, too many letters' response. How should I react to a phrase like that one of DarkCarnivour

>> If you bound your keys like the new system for BW, then tried to play ut... Imagine having no secondary fire button...

I've spent too much time explaining the details in my earlier posts to hear things like that from a dev... How many times should I repeat that actually there's no such thing as an alternate fire mode in BW, save for a couple of guns like the flamethrower?! I thought everybody here caught the sense of my words when I said that in BW we've just got a bunch of functions spread absolutely randomly between a bunch of special keys. While the flamethrower actually has an alternate fire bound to the secondary fire key, the railgun uses the same to activate aim, and some lesser guns use the secondary fire key for anything you might guess but surely not the secondary fire!!

BW is not UT, and that's actually why it was made, and these are not my words, but rather those of the devs. When a dev tries to advocate the current BW controls system and says that staying close to UT is good, my ears refuse to listen to such rubbish.

I don't care for secondary fire, UT, Call of Duty, Half-Life 2 and anything outside BW. However I care for two important things: as few keys as possible to control movement and weapons and as few intermediate actions as possible to reach the final goal.

That's what the yellow post was about. But the most ridiculous thing about DarkCarnivour's words is that he's criticizing the lack of secondary fire button in my new system... while the yellow post puts it clear to the limit that THERE IS A SECONDARY FIRE FUNCTION BOUND TO THE RIGHT MOUSE BUTTON in the new system. Looks like DarkCarnivour went no further than reading the initial post in this thread, so he missed all the significant changes introduced into the new system later as a response to members' feedback, also incorporating some of their constructive ideas (special thanks to Bjossi and Xav).

If the devs have some problems with reading and understanding, or they're short of time or something, they can always print the yellow post and pin it to a wall in their WC, then read it from time to time, paragraph by paragraph. Probably then they'll see that the current edition of the new system is aimed exclusively at the sole purpose of making BW controls as easy and fast as possible regardless of other FPS games, because other FPS games don't have 1001 useful weapon functions and BW does.

P.S. If you want to post something regarding my ideas, please make sure you've read the yellow post, understood it, then don't forget to read everything above the yellow post, then have a cup of coffee with ice cream, and only then get down to the keyboard.

Sorry, i just don't stand complainers like i should. I always thought that if you didn't like it, you don't keep playing, or you live with it, not go around preaching that there needs to be more balance or there are two many keys for you to memorize. Hell i'm damn sure i hated that there was a special function and weapons fire mode key for a while, I'm real sure i hated it. But after constant playing, and just enjoying the game, you realize to not look at the obvious flaws in the game (lack of true weapons balance) and just live with it, enjoying the game. For thats why the devs made this amazing mod. Not to have people saying that what the devs think is balanced is pure spammage. We're damn lucky the devs even made this mod, they've created a community around this one amazing mod. So I ask you, any of you asking for major change for this game, why? Why don't you just enjoy the mod, enjoy the fact that your lucky enough that it was even made, made by a couple of brothers working on it for free, in there spare time. Give me YOUR reason (as small of a summary as you can) why the keys or the weapons make this mod so un-fun to play for you.

Yeah, but those points, in my opinion are from someone wanting a to play a game like CSS where the guns are fully balanced, the maps you play on are 'balanced', and overall everything is balanced, even the key binds setup is done with right when you get in. Kabdoodle, do you just want BW to already have the key binds in so you never have to open that menu?

Still, i don't understand why you guys have spent much of this thread arguing that there should be a common control system, when ANY player, me, Bjossi even Kabdoodle for gods sake can open up the settings menu, go into keybinds and bind any function to any key, make prim fire for the space bar for all i care, but don't yell at us because some people use left click for prim fire while you use space bar for the same thing.

So pretty much, talking about keybinds is at least the oddest thing in this thread to argue over. Some people play the game using Up, Down, Left & Right keys others use WASD. Some people use F for Special (i think X does) others like myself find that Caps Lock works just right.


But you need to have a secondary fire for things like launching grenades and such. Yes i'll agree BW is a game with more keys than any normal key uses, but its still fun. Though if your missing a finger or 3 it might not be fun... are you missing any fingers Baklajan?