Do I read it correctly here that you want to increase the damage of an already insanely powerful weapon?

That would be a nerf actually. The current damage values for the gun seem to be 60 torso, 30 limb, and 120 head. Two body shots already kill.

What I want is for that not to happen. Hence 42-48 damage range.

I thought he meant changing it from the default 40, to 55. I shouldn't be awake right now.

I think 45 would be nice, but that means players will survive one shot in the head at default health...

My proposition for AM67:

1. -35% damage, yes I said that.
2. Higher inacurracy
3. High recoil so that you need to adjust your aim after each shot, which will naturally introduce a decent pause between shots, though not really necessary at point blank range
4. Clip size, etc., stay the same.

You could call M50 overpowered as well, but its recoil and inaccuracy make it quite difficult to control the gun, so no crazy shooting sprees with it... the same should apply to AM67. It should be a close-to-mid range pistol, and should kill with 3 shots in the chest. Fire rate and clip size are fine if you ask me, no need to change them for an assault sidearm.

Taking away 35% of the damage seems a bit excessive, what about 25 - 30%?
The rest looks good though.

The M50 does something like 24 damage damage per shot.

I don't really want to mess with the recoil and accuracy for the AM67, as I don't want to change the feel of the gun too much when fixing it. It would cause too much grief. I want to keep the functionality of the gun about the same, so that people experienced with the gun won't have to completely relearn how to use it.

Clip size and damage reductions do no such thing. A slower firing rate would be annoying for those familiar with the weapon, but not nearly as much as recoil and chaos changes.

Hmm, let's say -30%. And it should jump like hell, probably the first two shots should be more or less accurate, allowing a skilled player to place a quick headshot in close combat, but no use trying to make an SMG out of an AM67 (which is the current sad tendency). The more you press the trigger, the crazier the gun goes. It should be a powerfull, but skill-based gun.


Unfortunately your propositions ruin the whole concept of an assault pistol. It would be harder for many people to get used to clip size or fire rate reduction than to a cut in damage and accuracy. Damage is too high as of now, and accuracy is not the strongest point of an assault sidearm. While fire rate and clip size are the very essence of an AM67.

If it should be devastating at close range, but require quite a bit of effort to aim and use, I'd be most happy. I think that the best way to see if AM67 is balanced is to set a few duels between a Cobra-wielding and an AM67-wielding players. The Cobra one should have fair chances of bringing down the AM67 owner at mid and long range before he gets close enough to hit the sh*t out of him with a few quick shots.

Well i guess i'm just stupid, because i haven't done much fighting with multiply pistols ingame. I more or less only play with the Ballistic Weapons mut, and so i always get 1 pistol. So i haven't had much time to test it against other pistols, though in loadout the bots are just dumb and like using the best weapon they have, which seems to either be a meele, G5's, shotguns or assult rifles.

Hmm 30% less damage? Is that 35 for the AM67?

Add that to increased recoil and chaos then is is not much of an assault pistol anymore.

I agree it should sacrafice its incredible accuracy and also have only a 8-7 round clip (that clip looks small and the bullets are huge, it shouldnt hold that much) but the AM67's glorious damage must stay.

You see theres more to rebalancing weapons than just adding or removing damage

On the contrary to every elses claims I think the other pistols should be given more power. Rather than strip the AM67 of its mojo.

With a lower clip size and no pinpoint accuracy, the damage of the AM67 wont be a problem, no more than the Revolvers damage is a problem. Most the bullets miss and reload occurs quickly, introducing a factor of risk.

This makes the bonuses of other weapons more apparent, emphasise that and we would no longer be using just the AM67 and ignoring all other pistols.

For starters lets give that M806 more of a bite. Or maybe a more effective secondary fire? If it has a higher fire rate than the AM67 then it is something worth using over the AM67 already. Particulary if the AM67 has only a 7 round clip and the M806 gets a clip boost to 14.

One of my earlier posts stated how this tradeoff of power to other pistols will work.

7 rounds for the AM67? That seems too low considering the actual dimensions of the clip.

Recoil decline time should definitely increase to help balance issues. Lowers the effectiveness of auto-fire.

Also, everyone seems to think the weapons have a set damage number. In truth they all pretty much have a range for limb, body, head, and I think maybe misc. shots.

An idea could be to raise the upper damage just a bit, but severely reduce the lower damage value. That way you have a chance of doing a lot of damage, but greater chances of having low damage, with a bigger range equalling more randomness which can often work against you.

Anyone here want some tips towards making their own alterations towards BW? It's as simple as changing a few numbers.

Now that is some balancing that i could possibly live with.

The AM67's "glorious" damage is a whopping 60 damage per torso hit (with randomization factor present in all weapons) To put things in perspective, the RS8 and M806's damage hover at around 30 or so for torso shots, while the D49 deals something like 70.

42-45 damage would really be ideal for this gun IMO. That way, it's significantly higher than the other pistols, but not a two-shot killer that would obsolete the D49 (except in style. Can't beat the D49 in style).

We can't simply upgrade the other sidearms and leave the AM67 alone, as it would unbalance the sidearms against the other weapons (dual wielding, after all).

Switching the firing rates of the M806 and the AM67 really would do a good job of balancing both weapons. I mean the M806's firing rate isn't incredibly slow, just too slow for the damage the M806 does. However, with 45 damage per shot, the M806's firing rate would work just fine for the AM67.

And I'm not quite sure where the "pinpoint accuracy" is coming from for the AM67. I've actually found it to be not incredibly accurate when running and gunning, even when not firing as fast as possible. It's about the only redeeming quality this gun has.

EDIT: Also, I'm a little iffy on changing the variability of a gun's damage. Randomness isn't something you really want in a game of skill. I mean with limb shots, weapon damage feels random enough already.

That's why they call it an "Assault Pistol"

If you seriously dislike the AM67 for being a good pistol, just don't play with it.

No, the Assault Pistol name originates from it's big clip and firing speed.

really oh well. I still think it should stay as it is, at least damage wise.

The damage was the entire reason everyone's complaining about it in the first place. The magnum barely does more damage than the AM67 at a slower firing rate, less than half the clip size, and a reload time that's 4 times longer.

I don't hate it because it's a "good" gun. I hate it because it's incredibly overpowered, and the damage it deals is the biggest reason why.

Last time I checked the AM67 clips looked half the size of the M806 clips! Oh well.

I say it has pinpoint accuracy because it does, obviously not when running and gunning. But when standing still I have found it to be as good as a battle rifle at long distances. Even when dual wielded.

You are right on one thing, it is harder to run and gun with the AM67 than it is with other pistols.

That accuracy I think is where the problem really lies but if the point of the AM67 was having a large clip and fast fire rate then I guess reducing damage makes more sence. You cant have both.

But either balancing methods will work

AM67 mags are a lot thicker than M806 mags.

I do think that the AM67's clip size should not be larger than the M806. No more than 10 rounds I say.

I think that the weapons don't need to be balanced. Seriously. It's not that big of a problem. The game is customizable right now to the point that it really doesn't matter. Yes, the AM67 beats the crud out of most of the other pistols. That's why I have it as a primary in loadout, and have it spawn on flak cannon points in normal gameplay.

The balance issues can be worked out by everyone to their own preference. Adapt your own game, and knock off trying to make other people adapt it to you.

Me = done ranting.

Well that's just fine for offline botmatches, but what are you going to do with online servers? Not everyone gives enough of a rat's ass to think really hard about configuring the weapons for balance.

As a result, they just leave weapons out of the game, which I don't like. Right now the AM67 and M290 are completely gone from our server, and the Minigun and Lightning Gun are rarely since they were moved to superweapon. From the looks of things, the flamethrower and G5 will be following them soon.

I'd prefer a more definitive solution from the devs, not "figure it out for yourselves".

You do have a point here, you can't customize the Bw settings in Online, but i also am with Carsomyr here, they don't need to balanced, just adapt to your situation you're in.

It's easy to say ADAPT ADAPT ADAPT, but what specifically do you suggest we do to "adapt"?

Remove all weapons we consider overpowered? I don't exactly consider that a full solution.

ah got me there you do...

Wait, did I read something right, you banned the M290?

Could I ask whats wrong with this? I am rather quite interested.

Also, whats wrong with changing things yourself? You do own a server, I thought, and you can get quite a lot of opinions about changes to the AM67, maybe get a collection of them and show it to the devs. Give them your change log for the weapon or whatever, and see what happens.

If more people didn't like the "figure it out for yourself" approach, there wouldn't be a lot getting done would there?

Also keep in mind that DC did tweak the AM67 and D49 since 2.0's release.

M290 beats the pants off all the other shotguns. It's the AM67 of shotguns. It also seems to beat the shit out of weapons in other categories too.

This one will be problematic. It is a double-barreled shotgun after all.

Now for the DIY approach, wouldn't editing the files cause a version mismatch for people who already have the mod? Not particularly useful for our purposes.

I mean I could distribute the edited files to other people, but I dunno if I'm really allowed to do that.

What you should do is just add a new weapon, so to speak. Basically just create a new package for the weapon to reside in. This will not edit the existing files. I think I might've described how to do this in my PM, if not, just tell me.

As for permissions required, you could distribute it to a few people privately, just make sure you give proper credit. When the Devs give the ok for you to release it publicly, all is good (PM them for permission, might not be truly necessary, if you release it publicly on this sitte, but from your servers you probably better ask).

Double barreled shotgun... hmm... I can see in some ways how it's better. Never cared much for it myself. Uses too much ammo when one shot typically is fatal, plus it has shorter range and a missied shot = 1/5 your internal mag wasted.

Seems fair to me, but I'll take your word for it.

This should really be reserved for the next topic, but the problem with the supposed shorter range is that there are so many pellets that the wide spread doesn't matter. It has about the same effective range as the other shotguns, but with a bigger spread.

I want to move on to the next topic already, which is Submachine guns and Shotguns. Would anyone object if we were to move on? There seems to be a general consensus that the AM67 should be nerfed and others strengthened or tweaked, so maybe it's time to move on.

Well said Carsomyr.

Poorly said, Carsomyr. Spawning AM67 on flak gun spawn points is a good solution as far as the regular mode is concerned, but in Loadout this just devaluates the rest of the pistols. I'm still on Bjossi's side about cutting its damage by 30% and still keep both of my hands up for nerfing it by increasing its recoil, but don't think an assault pistol could do with a smaller clip or decreased fire rate, which kinda puts the term in question. Personally I don't want any overpowered pistols in BW, and it's not an issue to sweep under the rug.

Increasing the recoil would kinda force a decreased fire rate for any sort of accuracy, don't you think?

And with the flash device, which everyone seems to ignore, the Assault pistol wouldn't have its legs broken by a clip reduction.